Gerspride conference, Sat 14 nov

[Zappa 0]

Pretty good article and one the SFA should heed.

 

However, one assertion that I think is a bit much is the claims about the highest attendances. Lower ticket prices may be a factor but so is sheer size of population and population density combined with wealth.

 

If you gave England another 30 million people then I'm sure they would match the attendances of Germany. Also uniting the league with Scotland would up the average with the Old Firm.

I think the Bundesliga attendances average almost 40,000, which is good for an 18 team league. It's not a surprise when you look at the stadiums, a lot of which are over 50,000 capacity, with the stadiums in Munich, Berlin, Dortmund being a lot bigger (70k - 80k+). I do agree that population & it's density play a significant part, but the fact that most teams in the Bundesliga have excellent stadiums combined with the low ticket prices are the major factors in the high attendances imo. Their ticket prices are generally no more than half of what they are here in Scotland. There wouldn't be too many empty seats for SPL matches if the ticket prices were only a tenner, but we still wouldn't be able to get average attendances anywhere near those of the Bundesliga simply because of our leagues' average stadium capacities.

[calscot 0]

The problem here is that Germany have more than 18 times the population of Scotland which if you extrapolate those figures means if we matched them we could have an 18 team league with an average attendance of 40k / 18 ~ 2,250.

 

That's instead of our 12 team league an average attendance of well over 13,000.

 

Now that's about 5 times better at twice the price means we'd generating 10% of the money we are currently based on the German figures. The German model just isn't comparable to our league. Our league actually has an incredibly high attendance per capita - twice that of the Premiership and about 4 times better than Germany.

 

I think because 2/3 of our population support the OF, there is a false impression of low attendances in Scotland.

[maineflyer 0]

The problem here is that Germany have more than 18 times the population of Scotland which if you extrapolate those figures means if we matched them we could have an 18 team league with an average attendance of 40k / 18 ~ 2,250.

 

That's instead of our 12 team league an average attendance of well over 13,000.

 

Now that's about 5 times better at twice the price means we'd generating 10% of the money we are currently based on the German figures. The German model just isn't comparable to our league. Our league actually has an incredibly high attendance per capita - twice that of the Premiership and about 4 times better than Germany.

 

I think because 2/3 of our population support the OF, there is a false impression of low attendances in Scotland.

Thanks for that Calscot, it's a very useful perspective I hadn't thought about before.

[calscot 0]

Looking at the stats, the SPL is averaging 15k a game or 90k a weekend. For England to match that with 10 times the population and 10 games, they would need 90k at every game. With 18 times the population and 9 games, Germany would have to average twice that at 180k.

 

The thing is that in Scotland the supporter pyramid is very steep whereas in England and Germany, they have much wider bases meaning they have a lot more support at lower levels compared to our couple of hundred here and there.

 

So I don't know if the supporter levels per capita are the same in England and Germany as Scotland but more spread into the lower divisions.

[maineflyer 0]

Looking at the stats, the SPL is averaging 15k a game or 90k a weekend. For England to match that with 10 times the population and 10 games, they would need 90k at every game. With 18 times the population and 9 games, Germany would have to average twice that at 180k.

 

The thing is that in Scotland the supporter pyramid is very steep whereas in England and Germany, they have much wider bases meaning they have a lot more support at lower levels compared to our couple of hundred here and there.

 

So I don't know if the supporter levels per capita are the same in England and Germany as Scotland but more spread into the lower divisions.

 

While this gives a very interesting attendance comparison, it would also be interesting to know the comparison in income terms - do you happen to know figures that could be used to compare the admission charges. In other words, how dependent is each country (Scotland, Germany and England) on achieving attendances to pay meet their costs, and to what extent are these income-attendances being achieved.

[franker 1]

While this gives a very interesting attendance comparison, it would also be interesting to know the comparison in income terms - do you happen to know figures that could be used to compare the admission charges. In other words, how dependent is each country (Scotland, Germany and England) on achieving attendances to pay meet their costs, and to what extent are these income-attendances being achieved.

 

The only data i have seen that may relate to admission charges is in the annual report by Deloitte entitled The Football Money League. It details the financial performance of the worlds top twenty clubs by turnover. The last time Rangers reached the top twenty in their 2007 report, we were 18th out of 20. The report gives a breakdown of each clubs turnover,( Matchday/Commercial/Broadcasting) Rangers matchday income was 46% of turnover(the highest of any other club in the top 20)

 

It does not go into the actual average admission price that you may be after but you can trawl through and see that the other clubs, the Germans in particular, with their substantial commercial and broadcasting revenues can afford to keep matchday admission prices low by comparison to us.

[Zappa 0]

Something that Franker has just said raises one of my main concerns for Rangers should we go down the fan ownership route & that is the fact that our TV revenue is literally peanuts when compared to clubs in the EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A etc. Looking even just at the Bundesliga since nearly all of it's clubs are majority owned (although only just) by their 'members' (fans), you just know for a fact that these clubs are literally kept going by the marketing and licensing run by the DFL (their football league organisation). It would be great to know the figures because it looks to me like they must be earning significantly more money from the licensing of TV, radio & internet rights, but that's where the population figures come into it as well because if they're getting 3 or 4 times higher attendance figures than the SPL, it wouldn't be too crude to estimate that they'll be getting that ratio or even higher if you'd to look at the TV subscriptions & subsequent income from them for the Bundesliga clubs. The ratio is likely to be considerably higher in fact.

 

I'm not finished saying what I wanted to say here, but I've got to go, so I'll have to leave it at that for now.

[Super_Ally 0]

Interesting point Zappa, let us no when you're back to finish it though.

[maineflyer 0]

Something that Franker has just said raises one of my main concerns for Rangers should we go down the fan ownership route & that is the fact that our TV revenue is literally peanuts when compared to clubs in the EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A etc. Looking even just at the Bundesliga since nearly all of it's clubs are majority owned (although only just) by their 'members' (fans), you just know for a fact that these clubs are literally kept going by the marketing and licensing run by the DFL (their football league organisation). It would be great to know the figures because it looks to me like they must be earning significantly more money from the licensing of TV, radio & internet rights, but that's where the population figures come into it as well because if they're getting 3 or 4 times higher attendance figures than the SPL, it wouldn't be too crude to estimate that they'll be getting that ratio or even higher if you'd to look at the TV subscriptions & subsequent income from them for the Bundesliga clubs. The ratio is likely to be considerably higher in fact.

 

I'm not finished saying what I wanted to say here, but I've got to go, so I'll have to leave it at that for now.

 

Clearly, there's a trade off between admission price and attendance figures, as far as raising revenue is concerned, and I guess prices will never vary enough to overcome attendance as the main financial driver in this respect. However, if attendance income is only a proportionally small part of overall income then it doesn't matter that Scottish attendance in general and OF attendance in particular can compete with the best in terms of our available population. There is a certain minimum income clubs need to have a seat at the big table of football and if you cannot raise that income then it matters not how good you are at exploiting a given population.

 

All of which confirms we need to see our immediate future in terms other than the model that has been pursued during the Murray years. It's a pity since in any terms that a club is defined by its grounding and support, Rangers are very much in the biggest of leagues .... but that's just not how it measures up any more so we'll need to decide all on our own what we believe to be realistic criteria to judge our progress.

[Zappa 0]

Interesting point Zappa, let us no when you're back to finish it though.

I'll have to rediscover the train of thought. I'll find it before Xmas!