Ibrox: Jurassic Park?

[The Real PapaBear 0]

It shows that there was a considerable Unionist influence at the club prior to H & W's arrival in Govan' date=' and within the club itself, rather than the support, were individuals defining our club's identity and putting strategies in place to ensure it developed.

 

I believe this tends to usurp you earlier assertion...[/quote']

 

Still no further on providing any proof as to how messers Murray and Walker disagree with me I see.

 

It's just that, you began this by stating categorically that they disagreed with my "definitive conclusion" but despite repeated requests you haven't come up with any evidence to back up your claim.

 

Never mind, as we'll see shortly it was a claim with no foundation.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Where's that quote from RPB?

 

It"s a doctoral work, amms; if you google "orange alba, loyalism" you'll find it.

 

I would urge you to read from page 110 onwards with particular attention to the section which spans p122 to p123.

This is the part where Professor Graham Walker echos exactly what I said - well, I suppose I echo him since he said it first, but you get my drift,

 

Oh, and yes that'll be the same Prof Graham Walker who Dartagnan claimed disagreed with me. I think we can see now why there was no evidence provided in support of his claim.

 

"The composition of the leadership structure at Rangers

was mainly comprised of members of Glasgow’s Unionist political and business elite. Primrose

was a well-respected community activist, Tory politician and member of Masonic Lodge

Plantation 581.34 He was also a staunch Unionist politician who campaigned tirelessly against

Irish Home Rule. When he became chairman of Rangers in 1912, he quickly began to reshape

its public face. Prior to assuming the chairmanship Primrose publicly referred to Rangers as “the

sporting arm of Scottish Orangeism.”35

 

Once in office he actively marketed the club as a branch

of the loyalist family. He used the club as a vehicle for fundraising for the Grand Orange Lodge

of Scotland and opened the doors of Ibrox to the brotherhood for Orange Order events like the

annual Divine Service.36 During the anti-Home Rule crusade, Primrose regularly joined Sir

Edward Carson, the father of the UVF, on the speaking platform at anti-Home Rule rallies in

Glasgow and Belfast, thus symbolizing Rangers’ commitment and support for Ulster’s Protestant

loyalist population. Although Rangers was already generally associated with Protestantism, it

was Primrose who was the architect of the club’s enduring loyalist policy.

 

 

His fostering of Rangers’ ongoing connections with Govan’s Protestant-dominated

shipyards in Govan was reinforced in 1912 by the arrival of Belfast-based shipbuilding firm,

Harland and Wolff, which was notoriously Orange and sectarian. The opening of their shipyard

dramatically increased the flow of Protestant workers from Belfast to Govan. Thousands of

these Orange Irish workers settled in the Govan area permanently. For Protestant Irish shipyard

workers with an appetite for competitive football, Rangers was the obvious choice. Most

scholars agree that the arrival of Harland and Wolff shipbuilding works influenced both the

boardroom and terrace culture at Rangers, though they differ on its extent. For Murray, the

arrival of Harland and Wolff and their predominantly Orange workforce did not necessarily

introduce a new sectarian element at Rangers, but probably reinforced a trend that was already

well underway.37 Walker disagrees arguing, “The Harland and Wolff factor may well be seen as

decisive if considered in conjunction with the issue of Irish Home Rule.”38

 

38 Walker, “There’s Not a Team Like the Glasgow Rangers: Football and Religious Identity in Scotland,” 140.

[D'Artagnan 173]

It"s a doctoral work, amms; if you google "orange alba, loyalism" you'll find it.

 

I would urge you to read from page 110 onwards with particular attention to the section which spans p122 to p123.

This is the part where Professor Graham Walker echos exactly what I said - well, I suppose I echo him since he said it first, but you get my drift,

 

Oh, and yes that'll be the same Prof Graham Walker who Dartagnan claimed disagreed with me. I think we can see now why there was no evidence provided in support of his claim.

 

"The composition of the leadership structure at Rangers

was mainly comprised of members of Glasgow’s Unionist political and business elite. Primrose

was a well-respected community activist, Tory politician and member of Masonic Lodge

Plantation 581.34 He was also a staunch Unionist politician who campaigned tirelessly against

Irish Home Rule. When he became chairman of Rangers in 1912, he quickly began to reshape

its public face. Prior to assuming the chairmanship Primrose publicly referred to Rangers as “the

sporting arm of Scottish Orangeism.”35

 

Once in office he actively marketed the club as a branch

of the loyalist family. He used the club as a vehicle for fundraising for the Grand Orange Lodge

of Scotland and opened the doors of Ibrox to the brotherhood for Orange Order events like the

annual Divine Service.36 During the anti-Home Rule crusade, Primrose regularly joined Sir

Edward Carson, the father of the UVF, on the speaking platform at anti-Home Rule rallies in

Glasgow and Belfast, thus symbolizing Rangers’ commitment and support for Ulster’s Protestant

loyalist population. Although Rangers was already generally associated with Protestantism, it

was Primrose who was the architect of the club’s enduring loyalist policy.

 

 

His fostering of Rangers’ ongoing connections with Govan’s Protestant-dominated

shipyards in Govan was reinforced in 1912 by the arrival of Belfast-based shipbuilding firm,

Harland and Wolff, which was notoriously Orange and sectarian. The opening of their shipyard

dramatically increased the flow of Protestant workers from Belfast to Govan. Thousands of

these Orange Irish workers settled in the Govan area permanently. For Protestant Irish shipyard

workers with an appetite for competitive football, Rangers was the obvious choice. Most

scholars agree that the arrival of Harland and Wolff shipbuilding works influenced both the

boardroom and terrace culture at Rangers, though they differ on its extent. For Murray, the

arrival of Harland and Wolff and their predominantly Orange workforce did not necessarily

introduce a new sectarian element at Rangers, but probably reinforced a trend that was already

well underway.37 Walker disagrees arguing, “The Harland and Wolff factor may well be seen as

decisive if considered in conjunction with the issue of Irish Home Rule.”38

 

38 Walker, “There’s Not a Team Like the Glasgow Rangers: Football and Religious Identity in Scotland,” 140.

 

Perhaps the word "reinforced" should indicate what I have been alluding to RPB. The Unionist identity was well under way under way prior to the arrival of H & W in Govan. It was conceived and driven forward by Primrose not some ship workers from Belfast.

 

Your claim is at odds with Walkers because he suggests Rangers became the platform for the Protestant expression because of the existing transport links - which served a Protestant population wanting a club which reflected their culture & identity - this process is believed to have started before H &W's arrival in Govan.

Edited August 5, 2013 by D'Artagnan

[crucible 0]

The Horse Shoe Bar in Drury street and its Union Flag in the stained glass window is testament that Unionism and Protestant ethics were here long before any Harland and Wolff involvement.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Perhaps the word "reinforced" should indicate what I have been alluding to RPB. The Unionist identity was well under way under way prior to the arrival of H & W in Govan. It was conceived and driven forward by Primrose not some ship workers from Belfast.

 

Your claim is at odds with Walkers because he suggests Rangers became the platform for the Protestant expression because of the existing transport links - which served a Protestant population wanting a club which reflected their culture & identity - this process is believed to have started before H &W's arrival in Govan.

 

 

And so it begins. The attempts to deny what you claimed and pretend I said something I didn't - despite proof in black and white to the contrary.

 

At no point did I ever say that there was no protestant/unionist link with Rangers. I said that the arrival of the HW workers was the event that saw us inextricably bound' date=' or as I phrased it "fundamentally associated " with that political/religious movement. The exact same thing Walker says.

 

My original comments:

"It was[b'] the arrival of the Belfast shipbuilders [/b]in the early part of the century which saw the British/Protestant/Unionist ethos being fundamentally associated with the club....Add to that the conflict they had left behind and you get teh anti-Irish anti-Catholic thing which scarred our club for the best part of the century."

 

Walker's comments: “The Harland and Wolff factor may well be seen as decisive if considered in conjunction with the issue of Irish Home Rule.”

 

You claimed Walker disagreed - (despite failing to ever provide evidence in support of this claim, despite repeated requests to do so) - but as we see from the evidence I provided, he agrees entirely with what I said.

 

Perhaps, now that your argument has been blown out of the water, you'd care to apologise for your accusation of hated and intolerance, which you claimed was based on my making statements with no "substance".

 

Not that I'll be holding my breath, mind you.

 

"Some would argue, that comparing a group of football supporters, to one of the most vilest regimes ever to have inhabited this earth, is a feat of such dehumanisation that it ranks right up there with genocide."

 

Recognise the quote? That's you screaming blue murder about Keevins comparing Rangers fans to nazis.

 

"But give the current political administration their due – they did promise “Model government” at the start of their term of office and they have duly delivered.

The only problem is that it is a model which has striking similarities to another nationalist government which swept to power in Germany in the 1930's. "

 

Recognise the quote? That's you comparing the SNP to nazis a few weeks earlier.

 

 

As I said, if Carling did hypocrisy.

[D'Artagnan 173]

Tell you what RPB - the floor is yours - I'll leave others to read what has been written by myself and other contributors and draw their own conclusions.

[andy steel 0]

I read that doctoral thesis this morning RPB. A bit dismal in places, But fascinating to read that people - not the usual media suspects, people like the CoS which contains many, many Bluenoses- have been agitating against the traditional baggage since the early 1970's.

 

I wouldn't deny that many have signed up to the virtues we're concerned with. But given the opposition from within the club's support for over 40 years now, I think we'll have to come up with a new title other than 'the new breed'!

[D'Artagnan 173]

I read that doctoral thesis this morning RPB. A bit dismal in places, But fascinating to read that people - not the usual media suspects, people like the CoS which contains many, many Bluenoses- have been agitating against the traditional baggage since the early 1970's.

 

I wouldn't deny that many have signed up to the virtues we're concerned with. But given the opposition from within the club's support for over 40 years now, I think we'll have to come up with a new title other than 'the new breed'!

 

Thats a fair point Andy - and I would acknowledge my error in its use in the original article.

 

I would say that forums and message boards have allowed people the option to express feelings which exist inside our support - which do not manifest themself on match days - for obvious reasons.

Edited August 5, 2013 by D'Artagnan

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Tell you what RPB - the floor is yours - I'll leave others to read what has been written by myself and other contributors and draw their own conclusions.

 

yes, the floor is indeed mine, having wiped it with your baseless argument. And, indeed, let's leave others to read your claims without foundation, your continued refusal to provide evidence in support of those claims, your decent into name calling and your refusal to admit defeat when evidence was provided to discredit your claims.

Let's leave others to read your breathtaking hypocrisy when comparing the SNP to nazis and screaming in the next breath that a journalist who compared Rangers fans in the same way was as good as guilty of genocide.

 

I'm sure that conclusions have been drawn.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

I read that doctoral thesis this morning RPB. A bit dismal in places, But fascinating to read that people - not the usual media suspects, people like the CoS which contains many, many Bluenoses- have been agitating against the traditional baggage since the early 1970's.

 

I wouldn't deny that many have signed up to the virtues we're concerned with. But given the opposition from within the club's support for over 40 years now, I think we'll have to come up with a new title other than 'the new breed'!

 

I'm not in a position to judge the thesis one way or the other other than to say that it provided all the evidence I needed to disprove a suprious claim from D'artagnan.

 

As to your main point, we have to recognise that the Rangers support is not monolithic; it may be predominantly unionist, monarchist and non-catholic, but it's not entirely so by any means. If personal experience and internet fora are anything to go by, I'd suggest that our support largely reflects the national position at any time - not entirely accurately, but not that far away either.

 

There are those among us whose first allegiance is to Scotland rather than the UK, whose politics are left of centre, who have no time for the disneyland farce of the monarchy and who feel embarrassed at the infantile jingoistic 10-german-bomber-great-escape-imperialist-anti-irsh-anti-catholic drivel that comes from some of our fellow bears.

 

We are not few, and we are growing in number.

 

D'art actually makes a fair point - yes, I know - when he says that internet fora allow those of us who would not otherwise make our voices hears to, well, make our voices heard. Maybe a new name for us could be the Red Brigade... oh, wait..