Ibrox: Jurassic Park?

[andy steel 0]

With regard to Britishness and expressions of the same, spookily enough I read this in bed last night. It's by Kipling, a chapter of Stalky & Co. called 'The Flag of Their Country.' A rotten politican is addressing the boys of a school about their future as rulers of the Empire & so on.

 

"And so he worked towards his peroration—which, by the way, he used later with overwhelming success at a meeting of electors—while they sat, flushed and uneasy, in sour disgust. After many many words, he reached for the cloth-wrapped stick and thrust one hand in his bosom. This—this was the concrete symbol of their land—worthy of all honour and reverence! Let no boy look on this flag who did not purpose to worthily add to its imperishable lustre. He shook it before them—a large calico Union Jack, staring in all three colours, and waited for the thunder of applause that should crown his effort.

 

They looked in silence. They had certainly seen the thing before—down at the coastguard station, or through a telescope, half-mast high when a brig went ashore on Braunton sands; above the roof of the Golf Club, and in Keyte’s window, where a certain kind of striped sweetmeat bore it in paper on each box. But the College never displayed it; it was no part of the scheme of their lives; the Head had never alluded to it; their fathers had not declared it unto them. It was a matter shut up, sacred and apart. What, in the name of everything caddish, was he driving at, who waved that horror before their eves? Happy thought! Perhaps he was drunk."

 

The school's Army Cadet Force is broken up (by the kids), who recognise the horror behind the cheapening of the flag. "The volunteer cadet-corps is broke up—disbanded—dead— putrid—corrupt—stinkin’." Note the vehemence of Kipling's language here. I think this reflects the tenet of this whole argument: that if, at the height of Empire, people were put off by ostentatious flag waving and looked for an ulterior motive behind it, we can hardly be surprised when people do it nowadays.

 

If quiet patriotism was good enough for K., it's good enough for me.

 

Canny beat a bit of Kipling.

 

And also spookily, I've just watched the Antonio Velasquez Company perform a staggeringly erotic dance routine to Ravel's 'Bolero' during the Proms on BBC3 or 4. Spaniards dancing to a Frenchman's tune, making an old Scotsman decidedly frisky! They ought to change its name to Last Night of the Porn at this rate.

 

Point being it wasn't especially British, if at all.

Edited February 23, 2017 by andy steel

[chilledbear 16]

With regard to Britishness and expressions of the same, spookily enough I read this in bed last night. It's by Kipling, a chapter of Stalky & Co. called 'The Flag of Their Country.' A rotten politican is addressing the boys of a school about their future as rulers of the Empire & so on.

 

"And so he worked towards his perorationâ??which, by the way, he used later with overwhelming success at a meeting of electorsâ??while they sat, flushed and uneasy, in sour disgust. After many many words, he reached for the cloth-wrapped stick and thrust one hand in his bosom. Thisâ??this was the concrete symbol of their landâ??worthy of all honour and reverence! Let no boy look on this flag who did not purpose to worthily add to its imperishable lustre. He shook it before themâ??a large calico Union Jack, staring in all three colours, and waited for the thunder of applause that should crown his effort.

 

They looked in silence. They had certainly seen the thing beforeâ??down at the coastguard station, or through a telescope, half-mast high when a brig went ashore on Braunton sands; above the roof of the Golf Club, and in Keyteâ??s window, where a certain kind of striped sweetmeat bore it in paper on each box. But the College never displayed it; it was no part of the scheme of their lives; the Head had never alluded to it; their fathers had not declared it unto them. It was a matter shut up, sacred and apart. What, in the name of everything caddish, was he driving at, who waved that horror before their eves? Happy thought! Perhaps he was drunk."

 

The school's Army Cadet Force is broken up (by the kids), who recognise the horror behind the cheapening of the flag. "The volunteer cadet-corps is broke upâ??disbandedâ??deadâ?? putridâ??corruptâ??stinkinâ??." Note the vehemence of Kipling's language here. I think this reflects the tenet of this whole argument: that if, at the height of Empire, people were put off by ostentatious flag waving and looked for an ulterior motive behind it, we can hardly be surprised when people do it nowadays.

 

If quiet patriotism was good enough for K., it's good enough for me.

 

Canny beat a bit of Kipling.

 

And also spookily, I've just watched the Antonio Velasquez Company perform a staggeringly erotic dance routine to Ravel's 'Bolero' during the Proms on BBC3 or 4. Spaniards dancing to a Frenchman's tune, making an old Scotsman decidedly horny! They ought to change its name to Last Night of the Porn at this rate.

 

Point being it wasn't especially British, if at all.

 

I'm worried about you !!!!

 

I've edited the post, is it ok to put exclamation marks at the end??!!??

Edited August 2, 2013 by chilledbear

[andy steel 0]

I detect a hint of mild chastisement & mockery but I'm too far into my Glenfiddich to quite get it...old age!

[The Real PapaBear 0]

 

 

Canny beat a bit of Kipling.

 

.

 

You may be right. I've never kippled

[D'Artagnan 173]

A point which actually explains why we did become the antithesis of Celtic's shamrockery. It was the arrival of the Belfast shipbuilders in the early part of the century which saw the British/Protestant/Unionist ethos being fundamentally associated with the club. And why? Because this NI sub-culture, whilst akin, was not exactly the same as the dominant Scottish culture and so they probably felt the need to show themselves to be more British/Protestant/Unionist than we were. Add to that the conflict they had left behind and you get teh anti-Irish anti-Catholic thing which scarred our club for the best part of the century.

 

Id be interested to know where you draw the information from that leads you to draw such a definitive conclusion.

 

Most of the historical commentators - Prof Graham Walker and Bill Murray arrive at different conclusions from the one you have alluded to above,

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Id be interested to know where you draw the information from that leads you to draw such a definitive conclusion.

 

Most of the historical commentators - Prof Graham Walker and Bill Murray arrive at different conclusions from the one you have alluded to above' date='[/quote']

 

It may, first of all, be useful to define terms. i.e. what is the definitive conclusion you believe I have reached and in what way do messers Walker and Murray disagree.

[D'Artagnan 173]

It may, first of all, be useful to define terms. i.e. what is the definitive conclusion you believe I have reached and in what way do messers Walker and Murray disagree.

 

A point which actually explains why we did become the antithesis of Celtic's shamrockery. It was the arrival of the Belfast shipbuilders in the early part of the century which saw the British/Protestant/Unionist ethos being fundamentally associated with the club. And why? Because this NI sub-culture, whilst akin, was not exactly the same as the dominant Scottish culture and so they probably felt the need to show themselves to be more British/Protestant/Unionist than we were. Add to that the conflict they had left behind and you get teh anti-Irish anti-Catholic thing which scarred our club for the best part of the century.

 

 

All of the above.

[D'Artagnan 173]

 

All of the above.

PS and your sources would be particularly welcome.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

 

All of the above.

 

You see, this is why I'm asking you to be more precise and define your terms. Is your issue with "a definitive conclusion" or with all of the points I make. It would help me answer if you could define where you have an issue and then show me how and where messers Walker and Murray disagree.

 

Once you've done that, we can take it further.

[D'Artagnan 173]

You see, this is why I'm asking you to be more precise and define your terms. Is your issue with "a definitive conclusion" or with all of the points I make. It would help me answer if you could define where you have an issue and then show me how and where messers Walker and Murray disagree.

 

Once you've done that, we can take it further.

 

Im asking you to qualify the statement you have made and provide the sources which cause you to arrive at such a conclusion - and just to be as precise as possible lets omit the first sentence of your statement.

 

So Im asking you to both qualify and provide sources for the following statement you have made :-

 

It was the arrival of the Belfast shipbuilders in the early part of the century which saw the British/Protestant/Unionist ethos being fundamentally associated with the club. And why? Because this NI sub-culture, whilst akin, was not exactly the same as the dominant Scottish culture and so they probably felt the need to show themselves to be more British/Protestant/Unionist than we were. Add to that the conflict they had left behind and you get teh anti-Irish anti-Catholic thing which scarred our club for the best part of the century.