Germinal 27 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Hats off to all in this thread. Best there's been for ages. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rousseau 9,369 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) I'm not basking in any glory Rousseau and I'm not saying anything I've not been saying for months. I agree, which is why I said you were more than entitled to do so! My only criticism of Pedro is that results weren't good enough, had the side been winning every match he could have sent Kenny Miller to Timbuktu with the under 11s and no one would have complained. It's a results business, that's what he's judged on. In my opinion focussing on apparent discipline issues is to miss the point. Do we think there are no unhappy players at Celtic just now? Of course there are but because their side is winning regularly any complaints are ignored or better managed in-house. My point is some Rangers fans have already decided we do have a discipline problem despite there being no actual evidence of one. I assume it helps frame how Pedro was let down instead of simply grasping the nettle that Pedro was a poor manager of Rangers and should never have been appointed in the first place. Where is the evidence that any player thinks they bigger or more important than the manager, I hear this narrative but it's based on nothing but supposition. I agree results were not good enough -- I stated so -- but results have nothing to do with the disciplinary problem, perceived or otherwise. It should be kept in-house, but surely the fact that it was not suggests there is a problem, or at least an issue worthy of discussion? Highlighting a perceived disciplinary issue in no way negates the fact that PC was a failure. A player being dropped is "normal" but making an example of them by sending them away with the youths is not. No other manager, in nearly 20 years as professional, has ever accused Miller of being a disruptive influence, indeed quite the contrary. I repeat Pedro was a poor manager of Rangers, he struggled to manage his players and he didn't manage to get results or even performances required. There is no more criticism of him required, that's more than enough. I think it's quite common for a player out of contention to be sent to train (a) on their own, or (b) with the reserves/youths. I've seen several instances of it. A quick google search suggests Miller has had issues in the past: he's asked to leave several clubs; he threatened to quit Them -- not too bad... --; he had a bust up with Dave Jones at Wolves because he wasn't playing; and there was a story about Miller being annoyed at being dropped by MW. Of course, that is contrasted with several glowing reviews about his professionalism and leadership. But, it's not "never". Again, just because he was a "poor manager" doesn't mean there wasn't a disciplinary problem, or at least an issue. It's not specific to PC. The OP was suggesting a wider problem not specific to even Rangers. I only responded because I felt you were trying to criticise PC again, when, IMO, he's not done too much wrong. The only criticism necessary is that results were not good enough. I would expect, and would demand, a manager to drop a player and removes them from the team if they are a disruptive influence. I don't want players that think they are bigger than the club. Edited November 2, 2017 by Rousseau 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rousseau 9,369 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Hats off to all in this thread. Best there's been for ages. I'm knackered... 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darthter 542 Posted November 2, 2017 Author Share Posted November 2, 2017 None of it's true mate, you made it all up, that's the point. Krancjar: Regularly injured & struggles for fitness - possibly told he has no future at the club as a result, goes in the huff & talks to media Wallace: Injured - possibly told or realises that Declan John is performing better, possibly been told he's no longer captain, goes in the huff & talks to media Miller: Dropped from team due to poor performances, goes in the huff & talks to media O'Hallaran: Struggled to get a game under MW, couldn't get a game under PC, no buyers so goes out on loan, goes in huff & talks to media McKay: Couldn't agree new contract, too greedy Forrester: Didn't impress manager, sent on loan, no buyers so sent on loan, goes in huff & talks to media Hill: Contract ended, manager didn't want to renew Halliday: Told he'd probably get very few games (not good enough), no buyers, sent on loan, goes in huff & talks to media so which parts do you know for a fact are totally false??? Krancjar is always injured & has struggled with fitness from day 1 Wallace is injured & John has been playing better Miller was playing terribly MOH has struggled to get a regular game since day 1 McKay couldn't agree a new contract Hill's contract ended Halliday is of a lower standard than Jack/Dorrans/Rossiter (when fit)/Holt, so unlikely to get many games The only made up bit was the actions that I suggested they had taken....and the only info we have about ANY of the incidents has generally been through the media & "sources inside the club". Look at all the media attention surrounding the KM stuff - can you honestly say that didn't affect his situation at the club in a positive way??? PC is sacked & KM walks straight into the starting 11, wearing the captains armband.... 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaffer 1,665 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 A lot of really good points have been made in this thread and I'm enjoying the debate. There is however no question that we have a discipline problem. We have allowed a player to criticise the manager (via his agent) in the press and we have been perceived to back the player and not the manager. Equally however, PC should not have criticised MOH either in the press. He is a clever man and no doubt had his rationale for that, but it was wrong. These are absolutely fundamental problems in building a high performing team. It's amazing to me that some football clubs like our own are so poor at team building and what that means. We spend millions on the players and manager and then undermine much of the good work by allowing certain behaviours to develop. PC should have been told that under no circumstances EVER should he criticise any players in public. Equally, Miller should have been shown the door at the same time as the manager. We had an opportunity to make a statement about keeping issues in the dressing room, but we made a mess of it, and this will only develop further into a wider problem. This is where the board needs to step in and assert its authority. We can't allow this perception of players being allowed to criticise the manager in public (or vice versa) when they're upset. I think it was JohnMc that rightly mentioned the PLG era. He wasn't successful, but we also screwed up then by backing Ferguson and McGregor instead of the manager. The manager was (as PC is now) guilty of not getting results, but there was no excuse for the players undermining his authority. This behaviour just disgusts me, and I find it hard (or impossible) to support a player who does that. It's like a cancer in the club and we need to offload him, and any other dissenters asap. Players will always have issues and in a club of 20+ seniors players, they won't all be happy. That's fine, but it's what they do about it that makes the difference. I'm sure many of the Celtic players are unhappy about not playing, but if they spoke out they'd be out. Someone (again I think JohnMc) said that if the manager had been successful he could have sent Miller packing without criticism. I think that's true, but I don't think it matters. If anyone underminded one of my leadership team members, even if that leader was underperforming, that person would be out immediately and I'd get more support for the under-performer. Under performing is something that can be addressed. Bad behaviour is like a cancer and just needs to be cut out. I wonder what would have happened if Murty had left Miller out. Would Miller just keep quiet in the press, etc. Unlike many people (including his agent), I don't regard Miller as a model professional. Far from it. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darthter 542 Posted November 2, 2017 Author Share Posted November 2, 2017 Excellent post Gaffer.... 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 2,499 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 I agree that players should not have the power to bring down a manager but I will ask if there is a place to turn to if a player feels he or others are being unfairly treated by the manager. I would imagine that the DOF may now play a part in that but he was not in place when all this started. All of a sudden we are hearing of people being sexually abused to bullying in their work environment. one of the big points is that they had nobody to listen to them. Managers often use their position of power to belittle people. I know as I had a manager that I could not get on with. I will say that I am also not the easiest person to manage. but he was willing to lie and pounce on any small thing I did wrong to give me an official warning. I also found that the human resources department were backing him and not listening to me. Getting back to Pedro there are a few things I would say asks questions about his man management. Why would you ask Professional football players to turn up at 6.00am for training? I know some will say it is testing discipline but it sounds more like training soldiers to go to Afghanistan than train for a game of football. His lack of respect for people and teams also has to be questioned. Why say in the press that Aberdeen were no longer the second force before you have kicked a ball. His blast in the press about MOH and Forrester also have signs of a total disrespect for his players.. I backed PLG from beginning to end but Pedro just showed total self ego for me and was willing to belittle players to feed on it. He should have gone long before he did. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaffer 1,665 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 (edited) I agree that players should not have the power to bring down a manager but I will ask if there is a place to turn to if a player feels he or others are being unfairly treated by the manager. I would imagine that the DOF may now play a part in that but he was not in place when all this started. All of a sudden we are hearing of people being sexually abused to bullying in their work environment. one of the big points is that they had nobody to listen to them. Managers often use their position of power to belittle people. I know as I had a manager that I could not get on with. I will say that I am also not the easiest person to manage. but he was willing to lie and pounce on any small thing I did wrong to give me an official warning. I also found that the human resources department were backing him and not listening to me. Getting back to Pedro there are a few things I would say asks questions about his man management. Why would you ask Professional football players to turn up at 6.00am for training? I know some will say it is testing discipline but it sounds more like training soldiers to go to Afghanistan than train for a game of football. His lack of respect for people and teams also has to be questioned. Why say in the press that Aberdeen were no longer the second force before you have kicked a ball. His blast in the press about MOH and Forrester also have signs of a total disrespect for his players.. I backed PLG from beginning to end but Pedro just showed total self ego for me and was willing to belittle players to feed on it. He should have gone long before he did. This goes back to my point about the club not treating team building as importantly as it should. Clubs like ours seem to leave all team building matters to the manager, but that doesn't work. As you say, if there's a problem between the player and manager, who does the player go to? Some players leave. Some players speak out in the press. Some players even stop trying and just collect their salary. Someone of Miller's experience should have gone to the CEO or to the DoF. I don't necessarily want us to focus on this particular instance because the player and manager have made very specific mistakes. What it does highlight though is how quickly a situation can deteriorate at a club if the appropriate structure is not in place. It should be clear what the rules are, and what support is available. Rule number one has to be that what happens in the dressing room stays in the dressing room. This is the number one means of creating trust, and destroying it. If anyone at the club abuses this, they should be out. I'd make them come in at 6am to train alone every day until they left the club. There has to be a perceived and real consequence. Equally, the club should be clear about what a player should do if they feel they are being unfairly treated by the manager. The club needs to train someone to identify the difference between bullying, and a difference of opinion. If players feel they are being treated unfairly, at least it would give them a place to vent their frustrations, and possibly get a second opinion. The right person in that role could defuse situations quite quIcky, or equally quickly reach a conclusion that the player has to go - assuming it's not bullying. Why do clubs not treat this seriously? It makes no sense to me. I've seen teams made and destroyed because these simple principles are not followed. I appreciate that no football club is a big business, but it's important enough to spend the time, money and resources on installing this big business discipline. Edited November 3, 2017 by Gaffer 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darthter 542 Posted November 3, 2017 Author Share Posted November 3, 2017 I agree that players should not have the power to bring down a manager but I will ask if there is a place to turn to if a player feels he or others are being unfairly treated by the manager. The one place they should NEVER turn to is the press/media..... The 1st person that should be approached is the Manager & discuss the situation like adults. If that fails, you go up the management chain or to the players Union. Matters of discipline or "unfair" treatment are internal matters & should be dealt with as such. Instead, all too often, they are played out/dealt with in the media & verdicts effectively being made without ANY real facts. Getting back to Pedro there are a few things I would say asks questions about his man management. Why would you ask Professional football players to turn up at 6.00am for training? I know some will say it is testing discipline but it sounds more like training soldiers to go to Afghanistan than train for a game of football. His lack of respect for people and teams also has to be questioned. Why say in the press that Aberdeen were no longer the second force before you have kicked a ball. His blast in the press about MOH and Forrester also have signs of a total disrespect for his players.. I backed PLG from beginning to end but Pedro just showed total self ego for me and was willing to belittle players to feed on it. He should have gone long before he did. One thing about the Military is that they function 100% as a team, they trust their lives to each other. While the same degree of teamwork ain't required in football, the players still need to believe & trust in their team. The Military achieve this bond by effectively breaking the soldiers will & spirit to the point that they physically & mentally can't carry on themselves. They are then "rebuilt" with the support & trust of those around them. In the case of pulling players in @ 6am....why not if they are stepping out of line. Break that rebellious streak - follow the rules like everyone else & you can train with everyone else. That is stamping authority!!!! Did PC actually say that Aberdeen were no longer the 2nd force??? He said they were coming to the end of a particular "Cycle" and mentioned that there was going to be a significant change in playing personnel, which was then (mis)reported as saying their time as 2nd was over. As for PC's "Blasts" about MOH & Forrester.....again, he didn't just blurt these comments out randomly - he was asked specific questions in press conferences & pushed for answers to those questions. But, if a manager doesn't see a future for a player at the club, why hide that?? What is REALLY wrong with saying, he's not gonna play so if anyone wants to buy him etc, let me know. Again, the player in question shouldn't be questioning that in public. It is the managers decision as to who plays - NOT the players. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbr 1,247 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Players have way to much power these days and continually act like spoilt brats , not all but many . Its pathetic to see . 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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