Managerial Discipline?

[Darthter 542]

Here’s the thing respect is earned it is not given to you with a title be that Manager , Director ,Captain etc.

The scenario you mention ,no player would have dared go against Walter , Jock Wallace , Alex Ferguson ,they had the respect

of the players ,and they earned that respect because they kept putting winning teams on the pitch.

They made training that suited the players as well as the managers credo.

If you ask any player that worked under Walter a look was all he needed to give he didn’t need to banish players ,or attempt to humiliate them by making them train with the weans, bottom line and for whatever reason Pedro lost the dressing room.

He did not have,or managed to lose the respect of the players new old ,Scottish,Portuguese ,or Mexican

 

I do agree (to a point) about the respect side of things....however, in football the manager is the players boss. Than in itself should hold enough respect for the players to act responsibly.

In any normal place of work, if you'r line manager tells you to do something (maybe in a particular way), if you refuse to do it, or do it wrong repeatedly, chances are your gonna get a talking to or some kind of disciplinary action. If you then start bad mouthing your boss to all your colleagues, again your opening yourself to disciplinary action. If your boss tells you not to come into work, do you still go in??? Do you go running to the media to tell them your side of the story?? You may approach your union rep etc, but who will discretely advise on the way forward.

 

How often do we hear of the players reps getting involved BEFORE the media???

 

What is essentially happening nowadays, is that the players are complaining to the media, who then apply pressure to the manager to reverse their decisions. The managers really have a VERY difficult time with regard discipline. They can't actually take a hard-line approach incase they upset the player in question.

[JohnMc 2,478]

Tell me, during the Russian revolution were you on the side of the Czar? What about when the Bastille fell, would you have grumbled about the lack of discipline among the peasants and how was Louis XVI expected to manage?

 

Has no one on here had a bad manager in their working life? I certainly have, I've also been a bad manager, or at least one who made mistakes that with hindsight I'd do differently if given the choice again.

 

The extrapolation that we've a problem with discipline because the manager dropped Kenny Miller is a puzzling one.

 

Let's start with the manager. PC had some strengths, but he also had some weaknesses and one of those was an ability to alienate players. As well as Miller and latterly Kranjkar, Dorrans and Wallace he also had public spats with O'Halleron, Barrie McKay and Forrester, fell out with Andy Halliday and was unable to convince Clint Hill to extend his stay at the club. For me that points to there being a clear problem with the manager.

 

Good managers are able to manage players, the clue is in the name. That means getting the best out of them, even if they might be players they don't fancy long term. The smart manager figures out very quickly who the influential players in the dressing room are. These are normally the experienced ones, the club captain and so on. Either get them on side or get them out, that's management day 1.

 

The key issue is make sure if you're going to humiliate a popular and influential player, like Miller, make sure you're doing it from a position of strength. That largely involves winning your matches, do that and almost anything is forgiven. Miller doesn't have the reputation of being a trouble-maker. He's sat in many dressing rooms and seen good and bad sides, he might even have some insights into how a stuttering side might improve.

 

We're confusing poor man-management with ill-discipline without realising the two might be connected.

[Uilleam 5,444]

I'm not saying that he alienated 20+ players but if you fall out with/lose the respect of around five senior players (Miller, Wallace, MOH, Niko and Dorrans) then the problem doesn't look like it comes from the playing side. In that respect, if you still back the manager then you risk frustrating the rest of the squad.

 

i take your point, but when you bag the manager, it usually presages massive upheaval of playing staff. Unless the DoF takes some responsibility and appoints a coach, to, well, coach, the first team, as it stands. Of course, that wouldn't preclude judicious recruitment and disposal.

[Darthter 542]

Tell me, during the Russian revolution were you on the side of the Czar? What about when the Bastille fell, would you have grumbled about the lack of discipline among the peasants and how was Louis XVI expected to manage?

 

Has no one on here had a bad manager in their working life? I certainly have, I've also been a bad manager, or at least one who made mistakes that with hindsight I'd do differently if given the choice again.

 

The extrapolation that we've a problem with discipline because the manager dropped Kenny Miller is a puzzling one.

 

Let's start with the manager. PC had some strengths, but he also had some weaknesses and one of those was an ability to alienate players. As well as Miller and latterly Kranjkar, Dorrans and Wallace he also had public spats with O'Halleron, Barrie McKay and Forrester, fell out with Andy Halliday and was unable to convince Clint Hill to extend his stay at the club. For me that points to there being a clear problem with the manager.

 

Good managers are able to manage players, the clue is in the name. That means getting the best out of them, even if they might be players they don't fancy long term. The smart manager figures out very quickly who the influential players in the dressing room are. These are normally the experienced ones, the club captain and so on. Either get them on side or get them out, that's management day 1.

 

The key issue is make sure if you're going to humiliate a popular and influential player, like Miller, make sure you're doing it from a position of strength. That largely involves winning your matches, do that and almost anything is forgiven. Miller doesn't have the reputation of being a trouble-maker. He's sat in many dressing rooms and seen good and bad sides, he might even have some insights into how a stuttering side might improve.

 

We're confusing poor man-management with ill-discipline without realising the two might be connected.

 

Couple of points:

You mention PC alienating players, yet you/we don't know the full story behind it. One thing of note, PC remained pretty tight-lipped about most of the players you mention. Lets looks at some possible scenarios:

 

Krancjar: Regularly injured & struggles for fitness - possibly told he has no future at the club as a result, goes in the huff & talks to media

Wallace: Injured - possibly told or realises that Declan John is performing better, possibly been told he's no longer captain, goes in the huff & talks to media

Miller: Dropped from team due to poor performances, goes in the huff & talks to media

O'Hallaran: Struggled to get a game under MW, couldn't get a game under PC, no buyers so goes out on loan, goes in huff & talks to media

McKay: Couldn't agree new contract, too greedy

Forrester: Didn't impress manager, sent on loan, no buyers so sent on loan, goes in huff & talks to media

Hill: Contract ended, manager didn't want to renew

Halliday: Told he'd probably get very few games (not good enough), no buyers, sent on loan, goes in huff & talks to media

 

I have absolutely no knowledge of what went on in ANY of these cases, but not a single one of the scenarios stated above is beyond belief.....and every one of them makes the manager look bad, through the players own actions.

How is ANY boss supposed to combat that???

 

With regard to Miller....exactly what did PC say to publicly humiliate him??? I actually don't recall PC saying ANYTHING about MIller - it was all dragged out & discussed in the media.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Darthter

[Darthter 542]

Tell me, during the Russian revolution were you on the side of the Czar? What about when the Bastille fell, would you have grumbled about the lack of discipline among the peasants and how was Louis XVI expected to manage?

 

Has no one on here had a bad manager in their working life? I certainly have, I've also been a bad manager, or at least one who made mistakes that with hindsight I'd do differently if given the choice again.

 

The extrapolation that we've a problem with discipline because the manager dropped Kenny Miller is a puzzling one.

 

Let's start with the manager. PC had some strengths, but he also had some weaknesses and one of those was an ability to alienate players. As well as Miller and latterly Kranjkar, Dorrans and Wallace he also had public spats with O'Halleron, Barrie McKay and Forrester, fell out with Andy Halliday and was unable to convince Clint Hill to extend his stay at the club. For me that points to there being a clear problem with the manager.

 

Good managers are able to manage players, the clue is in the name. That means getting the best out of them, even if they might be players they don't fancy long term. The smart manager figures out very quickly who the influential players in the dressing room are. These are normally the experienced ones, the club captain and so on. Either get them on side or get them out, that's management day 1.

 

The key issue is make sure if you're going to humiliate a popular and influential player, like Miller, make sure you're doing it from a position of strength. That largely involves winning your matches, do that and almost anything is forgiven. Miller doesn't have the reputation of being a trouble-maker. He's sat in many dressing rooms and seen good and bad sides, he might even have some insights into how a stuttering side might improve.

 

We're confusing poor man-management with ill-discipline without realising the two might be connected.

 

Also, what happens when the next manager comes along & (potentially) has issues with the SAME players....is it the new managers fault???

[JohnMc 2,478]

Couple of points:

You mention PC alienating players, yet you/we don't know the full story behind it. One thing of note, PC remained pretty tight-lipped about most of the players you mention.

 

Well he wasn't tight-lipped about O'Halleron was he?

 

Lets looks at some possible scenarios:

 

Krancjar: Regularly injured & struggles for fitness - possibly told he has no future at the club as a result, goes in the huff & talks to media

Wallace: Injured - possibly told or realises that Declan John is performing better, possibly been told he's no longer captain, goes in the huff & talks to media

Miller: Dropped from team due to poor performances, goes in the huff & talks to media

O'Hallaran: Struggled to get a game under MW, couldn't get a game under PC, no buyers so goes out on loan, goes in huff & talks to media

McKay: Couldn't agree new contract, too greedy

Forrester: Didn't impress manager, sent on loan, no buyers so sent on loan, goes in huff & talks to media

Hill: Contract ended, manager didn't want to renew

Halliday: Told he'd probably get very few games (not good enough), no buyers, sent on loan, goes in huff & talks to media

 

I have absolutely no knowledge of what went on in ANY of these cases, but not a single one of the scenarios stated above is beyond belief.....and every one of them makes the manager look bad, through the players own actions.

How is ANY boss supposed to combat that???

 

Come on Darthter, you just made all that up! Here's the thing, a managers job is to manage his players. In around six months PC managed to fall out with around 9 first team players, that's a third of the squad and that's the ones we know about. You can peddle the theory that it's the fault of all the players, despite some of them being experienced internationals with no previous record or reputation for being difficult to manage. Or, we can look at the obvious reason; Pedro. I'm sorry but if you've got to manage 20 or so people and you manage to alienate that many of them in a short period of time perhaps the issue isn't them, it's you.

 

With regard to Miller....exactly what did PC say to publicly humiliate him??? I actually don't recall PC saying ANYTHING about MIller - it was all dragged out & discussed in the media.

 

It's what he did, not what he said. He sent him to play in London with the under 17s. That's very publicly making a point, a point that didn't go down very well with his players. By all means drop Miller, but if you're going to humiliate him then your side better be winning and backing you. They weren't, the rest is history.

 

As for it happening again, we'll cross that bridge if we cross it.

Edited November 1, 2017 by JohnMc

[Rousseau 9,390]

Surely it's also a manager's job to get shot of a player that is causing problems? Sir Alex had no hesitation in shafting a player, and players far superior to Miller.

 

MOH was crap, Miller was causing problems, Forrester has always been a problem fitness-wise, Dodoo I'm not sure about to be honest; what other manager would put up with that. PC is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't in this situation.

[JohnMc 2,478]

Surely it's also a manager's job to get shot of a player that is causing problems? Sir Alex had no hesitation in shafting a player, and players far superior to Miller.

 

MOH was crap, Miller was causing problems, Forrester has always been a problem fitness-wise, Dodoo I'm not sure about to be honest; what other manager would put up with that. PC is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't in this situation.

 

Well let's agree on something at the beginning; Pedro is no Sir Alex so comparing them is futile.

 

I don't know what you do for a living Rousseau so you might already have experience of this. If you manage a group of people at any one time some of them will be less happy than the rest. If those people are on performance bonuses that they're not achieving then they might be vocal about their unhappiness and if they believe that their ability to achieve their bonus is being held back by you, their manager, you can expect that disquiet to only grow.

 

PC didn't have a discipline problem, he had a failure to win matches problem. Every manager faces discipline problems, but if your side is winning regularly those problems are easier to deal with because you're in a position of strength.

 

Why do you think Graeme Murty brought on Hardie at the weekend, for all of 30 seconds? It wasn't tactical and we were already 3-1 up and Hearts had chucked it so the result wasn't in much danger. No, it was so he could get an appearance bonus and a win bonus. That's good management. Hardie won't have had many of them this season, and as a young striker not getting a game for a side that wasn't winning as often as it should he was almost certainly getting hacked off and questioning his future. In one go a player is appeased and given hope. How do you think Hardie will have been in training this week?

 

O'Halleron isn't 'crap'. Whether he'll ever make it at Rangers is moot, but publicly criticising him was a bizarre thing to do. MO'H had made no comment by that point after all, and the fact he'd found some form at St Johnstone I'd have thought would have drawn praise from PC whether he meant it or not. No one likes to hear their friends slagged off in public, MO'H has friends in the Rangers squad. No one likes to see their friends embarrassed in public, Kenny Miller has friends in the Rangers squad. Any manager who feels he has to do that is either lacking self-confidence or hasn't figured out how to manage professional footballers.

 

But as I said all of this wouldn't have mattered a jot if his side could have won the important matches. Had we beaten Progress and Motherwell and given Celtic more of a game than we did PC would still be manager. That was his problem.

[RANGERRAB 3,263]

Well let's agree on something at the beginning; Pedro is no Sir Alex so comparing them is futile.

 

I don't know what you do for a living Rousseau so you might already have experience of this. If you manage a group of people at any one time some of them will be less happy than the rest. If those people are on performance bonuses that they're not achieving then they might be vocal about their unhappiness and if they believe that their ability to achieve their bonus is being held back by you, their manager, you can expect that disquiet to only grow.

 

PC didn't have a discipline problem, he had a failure to win matches problem. Every manager faces discipline problems, but if your side is winning regularly those problems are easier to deal with because you're in a position of strength.

 

Why do you think Graeme Murty brought on Hardie at the weekend, for all of 30 seconds? It wasn't tactical and we were already 3-1 up and Hearts had chucked it so the result wasn't in much danger. No, it was so he could get an appearance bonus and a win bonus. That's good management. Hardie won't have had many of them this season, and as a young striker not getting a game for a side that wasn't winning as often as it should he was almost certainly getting hacked off and questioning his future. In one go a player is appeased and given hope. How do you think Hardie will have been in training this week?

 

O'Halleron isn't 'crap'. Whether he'll ever make it at Rangers is moot, but publicly criticising him was a bizarre thing to do. MO'H had made no comment by that point after all, and the fact he'd found some form at St Johnstone I'd have thought would have drawn praise from PC whether he meant it or not. No one likes to hear their friends slagged off in public, MO'H has friends in the Rangers squad. No one likes to see their friends embarrassed in public, Kenny Miller has friends in the Rangers squad. Any manager who feels he has to do that is either lacking self-confidence or hasn't figured out how to manage professional footballers.

 

But as I said all of this wouldn't have mattered a jot if his side could have won the important matches. Had we beaten Progress and Motherwell and given Celtic more of a game than we did PC would still be manager. That was his problem.

 

so what if PC's successor fares no better ? get shot of him too & start all over again ?

what guarantee is there a new manager will get more out of this squad as AJ dangerously suggested recently.

 

The problem we have is we need better quality players & to get rid off the deadwood MW & Pedro brought. It's that simple. It's where the funding for this will come from that's the issue & whether we can attract the right calibre of manager

 

And SAF dealt with the indiscipline he inherited when he took over at Man Utd by getting rid off the likes of Whiteside& McGrath.

[pete 2,499]

so what if PC's successor fares no better ? get shot of him too & start all over again ?

what guarantee is there a new manager will get more out of this squad as AJ dangerously suggested recently.

 

The problem we have is we need better quality players & to get rid off the deadwood MW & Pedro brought. It's that simple. It's where the funding for this will come from that's the issue & whether we can attract the right calibre of manager

 

And SAF dealt with the indiscipline he inherited when he took over at Man Utd by getting rid off the likes of Whiteside& McGrath.

 

If you have a leaking sink do you accept that or do you fit in a new rubber ring. It is indeed the players that make the difference but it is up to the manager to create the best situation possible that the players are happy and playing well.It may well take a few managers before we have the right man but we cannot accept a poor Rangers just because the manager is a nice man.