Win - Lose - or Draw

[maineflyer 0]

I find it hard to believe anyone can take a serious look at the players Smith has bought, how he has used them (or not), his negative tactics (or lack of), his negative demeanour, his lack of motivational impact on the club ........ and say this is what we want for Rangers, that they would like more of the same. It's so unbelievable you'd have to conclude it's just being contrary for the sake of it.

 

The support he's had on this thread amounts to an attempt at excusing some of his worst points. Nothing whatsoever has been said that actually commends him or justifies another year of the dross we've seen from a Rangers team so many times this season.

[craig 5,199]

Walter Smith has also had FAR superior funding from his paymasters than Eck ever had.

[Norris Cole 0]

Calscot I agree with much of what you say.

 

Couple of points though - Zhizkov and Kaunas were two completely different scenarios.

 

Zhizkov was in the UEFA Cup with little money at stake, a tie lost after a freak away loss where we missed a penalty and a number of chances, and a return home leg where we absolutely battered them off the park but lost out to an extra-time away goal with their only break of the game after going 3-0 up with some scintillating football.

 

Kaunas saw Rangers, the UEFA Cup Finalists just three months previously play for a draw in the 2nd leg against no more than a pub team after a dreadful stalemate at Ibrox. We shipped two goals and lost out on �£10m. What's more, Walter comes out in the media afterwards and says he could "see it coming". Position untenable after that I'm afraid.

 

Alex McLeish's team of 2002/03 were the last Rangers side to play brilliant attacking football, scoring over 100 goals in the league alone. The comeback I suppose is "Aye, but it was Advocaat's team". That being the case, why did Advocaat do so miserably with it then? Even during the 2004/05 title-winning season McLeish was up against a far superior Celtic outfit to the shell we see today, and was given a hell of a lot less money than Smith was given to buy players he won't play.

 

During the period McLeish was manager at Rangers and Martin O'Neill at Celtic, McLeish won 7 trophies to O'Neill's 3 (four if you include the 01/02 title which was already in the bag when McLeish arrived). So that kind've puts a dampner on the mhedia's favourite line that the Blessed Martin "dominated Scottish football".

 

As for the team of the 1920s/30s, this wee write-up gives you an idea of just how good they were:

 

Rangers Probably The Best Team In The World

 

In the 1930’s Struth’s Rangers were the supreme team of Scotland, Chapman’s Arsenal of England. Yet both managers had entirely different approaches to management and had taken very different paths. Given their personalities, I’m somehow convinced that each man must have been fascinated by the other. Fans and not just of both clubs wanted to know who really was the best club in Britain and as Mr Carlsberg might deduce, “probably the best team in the world!”. Surely that also went for both men and their players. The easiest thing would have been to observe.

 

Yet both gentlemen were sportsmen and though it is unclear who threw down the gauntlet, it was gladly taken up. In September 1933 an unofficial British Championship was organised between the pair.

 

Ibrox, 20th September 1933, Rangers 2 Arsenal 0 (att. 37,000)

 

Highbury 27th September 1933, Arsenal 1 Rangers 3 (att. 46,000)

 

Rangers played very well in the first leg but their performance ‘away’ was simply breathtaking. Dr Jimmy Marshall (later to join Arsenal) smashed a thunderous opening goal. Jimmy Fleming flicked home the second. Jimmy Smith hobbling on the wing with a broken toe, supplied Jimmy Fleming to score his second goal of the night. Afterwards, a magnanimous Arsenal Director commented “Rangers were good enough to beat England. I have seen nothing better.”

Edited February 20, 2009 by Norris Cole

[CammyF 7,044]

If we are talking about, ifs, buts and maybes wheilst defending Walters, it is also easy to forget that under AMc, we were very unlucky not to get to at least the semi-finals of the European Cup. We were defeated by a Villarreal team who were unlucky not to get to the final.

 

The goal Villarreal scored at Ibrox was well offside and we actually played them off the park in Spain (one of the proudest moments watching Rangers away from Ibrox). Villarreal resorted to timewasting, cheating and the usual Spanish tricks to ensure their passage that evening. In fact, if Kris Boyd hadn't failed to connect to that cross in the last minute, we would have won and would have faced (with a great chance of progressing) Inter in the quarters.

 

As has rightly been pointed out, AMc worked under a chairman who repeatedly sold our BEST players and didn't back his manager to replace them. We aren't likely to forget the scenes of AMc sifting through the dregs left in the last minutes of the transfer windows having scraps sactioned by his paymasters. Walter Smith has been given a kings ransom compaited to McLeish.

 

The brand of football we have played in the last 5 years (since we last won the league - coincidence?) has been awefull with very little, if any, improvement this season. We struggle to impose ourselves on the likes of Hamilton, St Mirren and Falkirk and you can't guarentee an away win no matter who we are playing. If anying, that mirrors the latter days of the McLeish era but hardly betters it.

 

As for points totals et al, doesn't matter how far or close you are - if you're second on goal difference, you are still second. If you are second by 30 points, you are still second.

 

Cammy F

[Norris Cole 0]

You know Cammy, I've always thought we should have won the UEFA Cup in 2001/02. Very unlucky to go out against Feyenoord and as I remember there were some ropey teams in the quarters - some Slovakian mob, an Israeli outfit and two Italian giants that played their third teams. That 3-2 defeat in Rotterdam is my second most painful European defeat after Zenit. At lest against Zenit we were beaten fair and square by a better team though. That 01/02 team would have pissed last year's tournament IMHO.

 

And yeah, give McLeish his due we were bloody close to the last 8 of a strong Champions League.

[CammyF 7,044]

You know Cammy, I've always thought we should have won the UEFA Cup in 2001/02. Very unlucky to go out against Feyenoord and as I remember there were some ropey teams in the quarters - some Slovakian mob, an Israeli outfit and two Italian giants that played their third teams. That 3-2 defeat in Rotterdam is my second most painful European defeat after Zenit. At lest against Zenit we were beaten fair and square by a better team though. That 01/02 team would have pissed last year's tournament IMHO.

 

And yeah, give McLeish his due we were bloody close to the last 8 of a strong Champions League.

 

I had actually forgetten about that campaign / game Yeah, we were so unlucky, player sent off, missed opportunities and a terrific performance in Rotterdam.

 

I watched the game in Amsterdam as I was ticketless but didn't want to miss the trip. It was surreal watching the game surrounded by Ajax fans all cheering on Rangers! In Saying that, there were probably as many Rangers fans in Ambsterdam as there were at the game itself...

 

Cammy F

[maineflyer 0]

As for the team of the 1920s/30s, this wee write-up gives you an idea of just how good they were:

 

Rangers Probably The Best Team In The World

 

In the 1930ââ?¬â?¢s Struthââ?¬â?¢s Rangers were the supreme team of Scotland, Chapmanââ?¬â?¢s Arsenal of England. Yet both managers had entirely different approaches to management and had taken very different paths. Given their personalities, Iââ?¬â?¢m somehow convinced that each man must have been fascinated by the other. Fans and not just of both clubs wanted to know who really was the best club in Britain and as Mr Carlsberg might deduce, ââ?¬Å?probably the best team in the world!ââ?¬Â. Surely that also went for both men and their players. The easiest thing would have been to observe.

 

Yet both gentlemen were sportsmen and though it is unclear who threw down the gauntlet, it was gladly taken up. In September 1933 an unofficial British Championship was organised between the pair.

 

Ibrox, 20th September 1933, Rangers 2 Arsenal 0 (att. 37,000)

 

Highbury 27th September 1933, Arsenal 1 Rangers 3 (att. 46,000)

 

Rangers played very well in the first leg but their performance ââ?¬Ë?awayââ?¬â?¢ was simply breathtaking. Dr Jimmy Marshall (later to join Arsenal) smashed a thunderous opening goal. Jimmy Fleming flicked home the second. Jimmy Smith hobbling on the wing with a broken toe, supplied Jimmy Fleming to score his second goal of the night. Afterwards, a magnanimous Arsenal Director commented ââ?¬Å?Rangers were good enough to beat England. I have seen nothing better.ââ?¬Â

 

When Rangers were respected by everyone. It was actually quite similar in the early 1960's after Rangers reached the first ECWC final against Fiorentina. Rangers were widely regarded as an matter of national pride by supporters of all but one club. It's almost unbelievable now but that's how it was.

[CammyF 7,044]

When Rangers were respected by everyone. It was actually quite similar in the early 1960's after Rangers reached the first ECWC final against Fiorentina. Rangers were widely regarded as an matter of national pride by supporters of all but one club. It's almost unbelievable now but that's how it was.

 

The same could also be said of the Hibernian, Dunfermline and Dundee teams who also created a fine reputation outwith these shores (around the same time)/ Plus the Aberdeen and Dundee UTD teams who performed so well in Europe in the early 80s.

 

Cammy.

[gisabeer 409]

I find it hard to believe anyone can take a serious look at the players Smith has bought, how he has used them (or not), his negative tactics (or lack of), his negative demeanour, his lack of motivational impact on the club ........ and say this is what we want for Rangers, that they would like more of the same. It's so unbelievable you'd have to conclude it's just being contrary for the sake of it.

 

The support he's had on this thread amounts to an attempt at excusing some of his worst points. Nothing whatsoever has been said that actually commends him or justifies another year of the dross we've seen from a Rangers team so many times this season.

 

 

Weve been beating our heads with a big stick for months now about Smith shortcommings and its safe to say he aint gonna change.

 

Sunday was the first time ive heard the media actually openly critisise his tactics but over the piece smith gets an easy ride.

 

I dont where we go from here with him. Quite a few of us saw the writing on the wall last season and i have to say this season is panning out no different. Same tactics, same bland football and the same mistakes.

 

And saying i told you so at the end of it all doesnt make it any easier to bear.

[calscot 0]

Zhizkov was in the UEFA Cup with little money at stake, a tie lost after a freak away loss where we missed a penalty and a number of chances, and a return home leg where we absolutely battered them off the park but lost out to an extra-time away goal with their only break of the game after going 3-0 up with some scintillating football.

 

It's got to be said that Kaunas are a bigger club than Zhizkov although we should easily have beaten both of them. To me, it was a team who had just reached the UEFA final and played a shit load of games and never recovered in time to get going against Kaunas with plenty of top players missing. It's a bit like the hangover you get from a big game to a small one, which happens often. However in end, I think getting to a European final gives you ONE get out of jail free card.

 

Kaunas saw Rangers, the UEFA Cup Finalists just three months previously play for a draw in the 2nd leg against no more than a pub team after a dreadful stalemate at Ibrox. We shipped two goals and lost out on �£10m. What's more, Walter comes out in the media afterwards and says he could "see it coming". Position untenable after that I'm afraid.

 

Terrible quote by Walter but I think he's referring to some of what I said above. Players are not machines and I take it he could see it coming because they hadn't recovered from the previous season and he had players missing, it was before the league had started and was very early in the year. Couple that with the big game small game hangover and the motivational issues of such a stressful end to the season which ultimately ended in failure and you can start to see what he meant.

 

Last season's finish was unprecedented so I hardly think you can compare to any other season.

 

Alex McLeish's team of 2002/03 were the last Rangers side to play brilliant attacking football, scoring over 100 goals in the league alone. The comeback I suppose is "Aye, but it was Advocaat's team".

 

Everyone goes on about how little Eck had to spend but when you inherit the most expensive Rangers team ever, it's hard to take that seriously.

 

That being the case, why did Advocaat do so miserably with it then?

 

That's not an easy one to answer but there is a ton of evidence where a good team have done badly under their manager, a new manager comes in and the same team play brilliantly. There is no mistaking that it was at minimum, a very expensive team that should have easily won the league on paper. One can only surmise that Advocaat "broke" that team and that's a theory I've had for a long time. I think the Dutchman has a limited shelf life at any club or country of a couple of years. After that his magic disappears.

 

I put that down to him being too much of a disciplinarian, it works for a while until grown men get fed up with it and rebel. After two years it just becomes demotivating. Dick is not doing so well now at Zenit and I'm not too surprised.

 

Even during the 2004/05 title-winning season McLeish was up against a far superior Celtic outfit to the shell we see today, and was given a hell of a lot less money than Smith was given to buy players he won't play.

 

Like Eck, Smith has paid for most of his signings with sales and if you look at the net spend for both, I doubt you'll see much of a difference. That same fact is used as a stick to beat SDM with by saying we're a selling club. How can it be both ways? How can we be a selling club but WS has had loads to spend? As you can see it's a complete fallacy.

 

Eck had money to spend after Boumsong was sold and Smith has had it too after the sales of Hutton and Cuellar.

 

Celtic may have been better than today but they have got to the last 16 in the CL twice recently, something the so-called superior team never achieved. I don't know if comparing Celtic teams is relevant as we've had a massive downturn in relative finances in Scottish football recently. Just like you can't compare Souness' team with the one now.

 

During the period McLeish was manager at Rangers and Martin O'Neill at Celtic, McLeish won 7 trophies to O'Neill's 3 (four if you include the 01/02 title which was already in the bag when McLeish arrived). So that kind've puts a dampner on the mhedia's favourite line that the Blessed Martin "dominated Scottish football".

 

Walter has won 2 out of 3 domestic trophies he's been able to contest - and the third was virtually stolen from him. If he get's the same time at the helm, it looks to me like he'd be able to match Eck - and without finishing 17 and 18 points behind. So if Eck is so good for winning trophies, how come Walter is so bad? You only have to compare Eck's second championship with last season to see that a only couple of twists of fate make the difference.

 

People say that Eck deserved to win the league as his team were "there" to pick it up when Celtic faltered. Well Walter was "there" too and only lost due to unforgivable circumstances contrived by the SPL. He's also "there" this season too.

 

As for the team of the 1920s/30s, this wee write-up gives you an idea of just how good they were:

 

Rangers Probably The Best Team In The World

 

Alas I was not alive to see them and I'm sure they were brilliant. So I can only talk about how they have been in my lifetime. I'm sure Queens Park were also the best in the world in their time but it's not so relevant now.

 

The point is plain that while Eck had a couple of disastrous seasons and his last team make the current one look like world beaters, he is remembered fondly. Walter is currently far more consistent and just as successful but is being pilloried with unfair comparisons all over the place.

 

I don't think Walter is the best manager in the world but I struggle to think who else we could have. But at the same time, considering his record, I think it's a bit disrespectful to be thinking of a replacement.

 

Apart from the 1920/30's team, I really don't know which teams that Walter's are being compared so unfavourably to. But Eck's teams do not make the current one look that bad.