Slash and burn

[Zappa 0]

While I blame Murray for his disastrous decision to leave transfer business until after Kaunas, ultimately it was Walter who played Dailly, McCulloch and Adam in midfield and played for the draw in Kaunas, which got us into this sorry mess.

I can't say it was a team selection that I was happy with mate, but it was one that should easily have beaten that Kaunas team. As little as we rate the likes of McCulloch & Daily, they're still highly experienced & heavily caped Scottish internationals, which is why we have them as utility squad players. They should be able to step in an do a good job for us when asked to. That pair of muppets were actually more to blame for that last minute goal that Kaunas scored than anyone else, including Walter. They should have had the experience and skill to not be playing suicidal passes just outside our box, but oh no, that was too much to expect from 2 of our more experienced players.

 

I get the feeling some fans just buried Kaunas in the recesses of their minds and hoped it would go away.

Everyone with an ounce of sense knew it wouldn't go away as it would seriously affect the clubs pocket. That's why I can't see past it being Murray's fault that we continued spending. He's the boss.

 

I would suggest that, given the financial situation wasn't great anyway, to spend �£2.6m on Edu and get 4 starts in return is a pretty dreadful bit of business as it stands.

Had the Edu deal not already been done before we went out of Europe though? I thought it was just pending the work permit application or whatever it was?

 

While he was reckless in releasing funds we didn't have on what was essentially a post-Kaunas PR exercise, it's not Murray who went out and spotted the list of players you mention.

It's not a bad list of players though & not really a huge cost considering that most of them are either international players for their country or in that class & WILL be playing for their country. I do agree that the spending should have stopped after we went out of Europe though (which I already said). The continuation of spending post Kaunas was just stupidity, but it was Murray's stupidity, not Walters.

 

I blame them both. They're two peas in a pod when it comes to the decline of our club.

Well I definitely can't agree with you on that Norris. Murray is the gaffer, so the buck stops with him & imo Smith has done a good job since his return. We might not all like his tactics all the time & he's yet to win us the SPL title back, but to say he hasn't done a good job & is to blame for the decline of our club is just not right imo.

[Norris Cole 0]

Everyone with an ounce of sense knew it wouldn't go away as it would seriously affect the clubs pocket.

 

You said it. Surely that can't be blamed on Murray. Walter runs the football side of the business and delivered a result that had P45 written all over it in any industry.

 

Had the Edu deal not already been done before we went out of Europe though? I thought it was just pending the work permit application or whatever it was?

 

No idea, that may be the case. However that doesn't get round the figure of 2.6m for 4 starts.

 

The continuation of spending post Kaunas was just stupidity, but it was Murray's stupidity, not Walters.

 

Some of Walter's buys were as clear an example of stupidity as you could find. Velicka for one. �£1m ain't no drop in the ocean for Rangers anymore.

 

Well I definitely can't agree with you on that Norris. Murray is the gaffer, so the buck stops with him & imo Smith has done a good job since his return. We might not all like his tactics all the time & he's yet to win us the SPL title back, but to say he hasn't done a good job & is to blame for the decline of our club is just not right imo.

 

Smith runs scared of shite teams.

 

That, and his barely disguised contempt for the fans, which along with Murray's hatred of us has contributed to fan-club relations being at their worst since as far back as I can remember. That counts as a decline of the club in my book.

[Zappa 0]

You said it. Surely that can't be blamed on Murray. Walter runs the football side of the business

Walter only spends when he's allowed to. It's Murray's fault that the spending continued after we went out to Kaunas.

 

No idea, that may be the case. However that doesn't get round the figure of 2.6m for 4 starts.

Fair point, but it sounds & looks like we might well be seeing a lot more of the lad.

 

Some of Walter's buys were as clear an example of stupidity as you could find. Velicka for one. �£1m ain't no drop in the ocean for Rangers anymore.

I agree, but as I said before, we've actually come very close to needing to play him because of injuries to our main strikers.

 

That, and his barely disguised contempt for the fans, which along with Murray's hatred of us has contributed to fan-club relations being at their worst since as far back as I can remember. That counts as a decline of the club in my book.

Come on, Smith doesn't hate the fans at all. He's made some poorly worded comments when his backs been forced up against the wall by the dastardly press vultures, but he doesn't hate the fans, no way. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a bit cheesed off with some of the muppets in the support mind you.

[Norris Cole 0]

According to Smith I'm not one of the "fair minded people" because I criticise Murray's running of the club.

 

By coming on internet sites and criticising Smith I have "ideas above my station".

 

I didn't want Walter to sign Kenny Miller so I'm "living in the dark ages".

 

While Rangers fans are being hammered from all sides, Murray comes out and all but says it's all our own fault. Walter says what he's told to. Smith is entirely complicit in Rangers fans being treated like lepers in Scotland today.

 

As for the post-Kaunas spending, while it might be Murray's money, it's Smith who decides what it's spent on.

[maineflyer 0]

Sadly, attempting to split the regime and allocate blame to one and exclude the others simply won't do.

 

It is undoubtedly the case that David Murray should carry the can for the mismanagement of the club. It is his responsibility to see that capable people are in position and are actually delivering what is required for the club to succeed. To that extent, Murray intalled both Bain and Smith and should bear responsibility for their actions.

 

However, just because Murray ultimately shoulders responsibility, it does not absolve the likes of Smith for his own performance as manager. No matter how much we may wish to take a lenient view of our manager, he was grossly culpable for the Kaunas debacle and no amount of deflection can alter that. Regardless of whether the late acquisition of new players was due to Martin Bain (and it's only speculation to say that it was), Smith chose a most inappropriate team selection for that game and got his tactics completely wrong. He virtually admitted that in a post-match interview. Even with the players he did have at his disposal, they could have been better prepared and better deployed. What defeated us that night was Smith's own mindset - HE wasn't ready and HE didn't do his job properly.

 

The fact is that mediocrity is entrenched at Rangers, from top to bottom and in every aspect of the club's activities. The lead comes from the top but I cannot see a single aspect of the club where excellence is pursued. I have some experience of turning around failing companies and I'm afraid I see in Rangers all the worst symptoms of failure. Only new leadership, followed by root and branch change throughout the organisation will sweep away the acceptance of second best that runs through the club like a virus.

 

Murray is an ego on stilts, who runs businesses like chesspieces on a board but wouldn't have a clue what to do in the engine room of a company. He is basically an incompetent at this level and is grossly inexperienced at the task required at Ibrox. And doesn't it show!

 

I'd rather not waste time expressing opinion on Bain, he's really not worth the effort and must be the luckiest and least-deserving millionaire in the country.

 

Smith never was a particularly good manager but rode a wave for a few years and ultimately left the playing side of the club in a hell of a mess in 1998. His managerial career started in 1991 on the back of Souness' momentum and celtic nowhere in sight. Six successful years and a fortune in spending followed, after which he has achieved almost nothing at all. That's a fact. Irrespective of what the financial circumstances were at Everton, Smith's departure from Goodison was universally met with relief and joy.

 

His short tenure at Hampden stood or fell on one crazy shot by McFadden in Paris that the manager had no part in, didn't plan for and could in no way have forseen. Take away that one amazing strike of the ball and Smith's term as Scotland manager looks entirely different.

 

I mention these two episodes in Smith's career in case anyone thinks he is being judged too harshly in his current job. He's not. Don't try to exclude Smith from blame for the mess we're in at present. He knew the implications of not winning the league last year but still chose to pursue every trophy in sight. At the end of last season he knew, as did Murray, that we simply had to qualify for the CL. Yet when the first hurdle appeared, we looked nowhere near ready. It was gross negligence on Smith's part as manager and he should have been sacked out of hand for it at the time. That he wasn't says everything that needs to be said about Murray, who then embarked on a spending spree to collect players we didn't need and would never use - or who would be used in positions they had never played in.

 

The upshot is the financial mess we find ourselves in and no amount of contrived analysis will change it. Regardless of whether we win the league this year, we are about to take another significant step downwards on the stairway of decline. Our best players will almost all go in the summer and be replaced by worse or less experienced. We will either have Smith at the helm or McCoist, God help us, and imo we will be lucky to finish in the top four next year. Anyone who was around in the 1980's will know what to expect.

 

Murray blaming this state of affairs in the global economic situation is fatuous and typically dishonest. He shows nothing but his self-interest when he makes these statements and while he gives precedence to his personal reputation, the club will continue to spiral out of control.

[Zappa 0]

So you think that Walter Smith shouldn't have been trying to win us every trophy in sight last season maineflyer? In that case a better manager in your opinion wouldn't want us to win as much as we can possibly win?

 

I didn't like the team selection for the Kaunas game either, but I don't think Walter Smith should have been sacked for their last minute goal that put us out. I also don't think that ANY manager for a football team should be sacked for another side being well enough organized to stop them scoring enough goals to coast to a win. It's an expected part of the game that smaller sides with less talent on paper can be very hard to beat sometimes, no matter how good your squad is. That's something that Walter Smith knows very well because it's something that he took to the International team & brought back to Ibrox with him - the ability to set up the team to be hard to beat, even when playing against European teams with a lot more resources & talent in their team/at their club than ours. Yet you think because a manager of a lesser team got a result that put us out of Europe this season by playing us at our own game & getting a bit of luck on the day to help = Sack the manager, he's no good? Honestly, I don't follow your reasoning at all & I don't think my view on that is based on any 'contrived analysis', just logic and what I deem as common sense.

[maineflyer 0]

So you think that Walter Smith shouldn't have been trying to win us every trophy in sight last season maineflyer? In that case a better manager in your opinion wouldn't want us to win as much as we can possibly win?

That's totally irrelevant and has got nothing to do with the point I was making. It's notable that you only comment on my post where it deals with Smith and that may be why you seem to take everything out of context.

 

 

I didn't like the team selection for the Kaunas game either, but I don't think Walter Smith should have been sacked for their last minute goal that put us out. I also don't think that ANY manager for a football team should be sacked for another side being well enough organized to stop them scoring enough goals to coast to a win. It's an expected part of the game that smaller sides with less talent on paper can be very hard to beat sometimes, no matter how good your squad is.

Are you making this up as you go? Why do you think football managers DO get sacked? I said Smith should have been sacked for his negligence in not having the team properly ready for the Kaunas game and thereby failing to prepare us for the essential task of qualifying. What is it about failure you find so hard to face up to? He had a critical objective, he failed. Either you're suggesting it was someone esle's fault or we should just say "bad luck" and forget it. We're not talking here about losing to St Mirren but about a failure that will have a severe and long lasting effect on the club. If Smith isn't capable of taking us past teams like Kaunas when it really matters then why is he here - surely that is exactly when we should have seen the need to replace him with someone who COULD do the job.

 

 

That's something that Walter Smith knows very well because it's something that he took to the International team & brought back to Ibrox with him - the ability to set up the team to be hard to beat, even when playing against European teams with a lot more resources & talent in their team/at their club than ours. Yet you think because a manager of a lesser team got a result that put us out of Europe this season by playing us at our own game & getting a bit of luck on the day to help = Sack the manager, he's no good?

I don't give a monkey's how good you think Walter Smith is at not getting beat - he got beat by Kaunas. The world is full of failed football managers who tried to be hard to beat but couldn't win when it mattered. His task was to ensure we qualified for the CL this season and he failed to achieve that. If he cannot achieve what is needed then he should have been shown the door. Rangers isn't a charity and Smith should not expect or be given special treatment. He didn't take us the the CL, he hasn't bought well, he hasn't used his players well, he hasn't brought through our younger players. Instead of making excuses for him, tell me why he has achieved to deserve to be Rangers manager - but please don't justify Walter Smith by telling me how good the manager of Kaunas was or how late in the game they scored. Walter Smith had 180 minutes to beat Kaunas and couldn't do it.

 

 

Honestly, I don't follow your reasoning at all & I don't think my view on that is based on any 'contrived analysis', just logic and what I deem as common sense.

IMO, there isn't really much logic to be found in your post - other than the logic of trying to score points and I've no doubt you'll be prepared to test anyone's stamina in that respect - but it does seem contrived to me in so much as you extract selectively to support your own argument. Smith is a poor manager, has always been a poor manager and he's attracting residual support from a minority only because he was manager through part of the niar years.

[UCF2008 0]

His short tenure at Hampden stood or fell on one crazy shot by McFadden in Paris that the manager had no part in, didn't plan for and could in no way have forseen. Take away that one amazing strike of the ball and Smith's term as Scotland manager looks entirely different.

 

I think you'll find that McFadden goal in Paris came under Eck's time as Scotland manager.

 

Walter took a complete shambles of a Scotland side and quickly got them organised into a team which were hard to beat and achieving results. In our World Cup Qualifying group we finished 3rd after Walters 7 games in charge:

 

Italy 2-0 Scotland

Scotland 2-0 Moldova

Belarus 0-0 Scotland

Scotland 1-1 Italy

Norway 1-2 Scotland

Scotland 0-1 Belarus

Slovenia 0-3 Scotland

 

At the time he left the Scotland post they were top of the qualifying group, ahead of world champions Italy and World Cup runners-up France following a run of three wins in four games:

 

Scotland 6-0 Faroe Islands

Lithuania 1-2 Scotland

Scotland 1-0 France

Ukraine 2-0 Scotland

 

To suggest that Walter didn't turn things around for Scotland post Berti Vogts is just as ridiculous as saying he didn't do likewise for the mess that PLG left Rangers in.

[maineflyer 0]

To suggest that Walter didn't turn things around for Scotland post Berti Vogts is just as ridiculous as saying he didn't do likewise for the mess that PLG left Rangers in.

 

Quite right. I wouldn't have said that either. However, that has no bearing on where we are as a club ot smith's role in it.

[Norris Cole 0]

To suggest that Walter didn't turn things around for Scotland post Berti Vogts is just as ridiculous as saying he didn't do likewise for the mess that PLG left Rangers in.

 

That's what the second half of 2006/07 was about - shoring up the defence and steadying the ship.

 

That was two seasons ago.

 

As for Scotland - who cares.