calscot

Building for the future is a fallacy - just ask Arsenal and have a look at Man U, Man City and Chelsea.

Rangers are a joke and their fans who don't believe that are morons? And you say you are a fan? That's the real joke. Yes, Rangers were much better in the early eighties and nine in a row for Celtic was brilliant before that - but I suppose judging by your posts, you probably weren't even alive then. You might find Rangers a joke in your lifetime but their are plenty on here who have really enjoyed supporting the club over the years with plenty of trophies and a few European runs and I fail to see how that makes them morons. That's about the most disparaging thing I've heard about Rangers and its fans I've ever heard on here and shows your level.

Like Falkirk? Norwich? Celtic under Mowbray or Burns? You're just coming out with the same old stuff all the time that just doesn't make much sense. You can play to win and that can be ugly or aesthetic and if you succeed you win. You can play to look good and if you succeed you'll look good, but that does not mean you'll win. Playing "nice" football does not win games - there is no cause and effect there. The Harlem Globe trotters are probably great players but I doubt they'd win the NBA. They don't have a team trying to stop them playing for every second of the game. I doubt you've ever played competitive football, as it will be rare to get a team who goes out just to "look good". Most players want to play good football but when they get into the game it's not that easy and I doubt you'll go along to your local park to enjoy the beautiful game on display. It's this kind of attitude that stops the crowd getting behind the team and helping them win. I'd rather the manager worked out the best way for the team to win, rather than the best way to look good.

You call the following list, "Jobs for the boys"? Walter Smith, Archie Knox, Tommy Møller Nielsen, Dick Advocaat, Bert van Lingen, Alex McLeish, Andy Watson, Paul Le Guen, Yves Colleu, Kenny McDowall, Adam Owen. Which "boys" are we talking about? I'll give you McCoist and Durrant used to play for Rangers but how are the others connected?

I'll volunteer for Montrose.

Sorry, I said, "you don't seem sane to me". It wasn't meant as a personal insult, it's just my opinion that if someone thinks a manager is not good enough because he is expected to win the league or be sacked even with a ten point penalty, his club going into administration and his players taking 75% pay cuts, seems incredibly extreme to me. Didn't mean to cause offence.

How can you "blow" a 15pt lead when the other team has two games in hand? It was a nine point lead and we lost to Celtic in our second game against them - pretty much normal for a season, and in fact we won two and lost two - nothing to complain about. So really we blew an effective 6 point lead by dropping 8 points in 6 games while Celtic dropped none and it has to be remembered they were pretty lucky and had quite a few dodgy ref decisions due to their campaign against them. We then lost the advantage in the OF games due to a perfectly good goal chalked off. That left us 2 points behind. We then rallied with four wins and a draw in five games playing some good stuff, although Celtic continue an amazing run that they won all the games meaning we were 4 points behind. Then administration came and we were docked 10 points and lost three out of the next four games which was obviously related and not what we'd have expected normally. So by 17th of March we were 21 points behind. We then beat Celtic to be 18 points behind. We won the next couple of games but lost the league with 5 games to go. If we could have played those four games after administration at the end of the season we could have being going to Celtic for the last OF game of the season 1 point ahead with 8 games to go. Or if you apply a normal two points dropped in those four games we could have been playing Celtic at one point behind with four games to go. I doubt the players would have gone through the motions in the last Celtic game in those scenarios. But the point is that if administration had not happened, the likelihood is pretty high that we'd have been pretty close to Celtic till the end of the season and it would have been a bit of a toss up who would have one. Given Celtic's predilection for bottling it, I think we'd have had the advantage. But it's all so buggered up due to the financial melt down that we really don't know what would have happened. However it is ludicrous to expect a manager to win the title against a close rival with even the 10pt deduction never mind the other aspects. We finished second but that's what you'd expect at best under the circumstances and no manager could be blamed for that. Especially one who had competed for the title before the melt down. He was 4 points ahead for the first half of the season, but things started to go bad by 17th December which is probably the time when the rumours about our finances was getting to a crescendo. I don't know how you can judge a manager on the rest of that season.

As I said, in a manager's first season, especially BEFORE he has sorted his team, you can't judge really him on cup games. They are too unpredictable and so you need to judge him on that over several seasons. It's the league that shows where abouts you are as it is not about one of games. McCoist did not have the most easiest of starts - very early games against the champions of countries of similar size to use, one of which was already in the middle of its season. There is a pattern here where we lose in these type of games that has been shown by Eck and Walter also: if you don't have a settled team and don't get your new players in early, you can struggle. McCoist did not have a settled team, we lost two many players - you said yourself that he had to sign nine but most of those did not arrive till after we were out. Add in injury, lack of fitness and players who were not back till late from international duty and you have an unprepared side. I think our preseason showed that we weren't in shape. You may want to blame Ally for that but that's like complain a chef's cake is shit when he hasn't got all the ingredients and you take it out of the oven too early. There is only so much you can influence. A large budget counts for nothing if you don't spend it on time - and when you don't get to spend it on what you think you need and get second rate products instead. You seem to base management on how well you do in Europe in your first season - you are one of very few. How well you do in a cup competition depends on the draw and how well you play in those one off games. If that was the sign of the best team then the Scottish cup would be more important than the championship. PLG did OK in Europe, not spectacularly but OK. However, his performance the the MAIN competition, the one that really counts was very poor - and if McCoist had done that badly I'd have wanted him to go too. I take it you thought Eck's last season was successful because we reached the CL knockout stage even though we finished third in the league? Making excuses are we? Thought that wasn't allowed? Is it not the manager's job to get the players playing for him? Isn't that one of the most basic skills of a manager? PLG brought in most of new team and had more money at his disposal than he spent. However, he didn't research Scottish football or culture, he didn't learn to communicate well in English and he brought three other Frenchmen as part of his coaching team. It's another thread but the guy got it spectacularly wrong and then walked away at the first opportunity. He was our WORST manager in our 140 year history. He also committed the crime of being out of both cups* before they really started and one of them to a lower division side. So he failed spectacularly in all THREE domestic competitions but he did OK in Europe so was a good manager? (* I know one was after he left but as it was the first game, I attribute it to him.) McCoist has not had a proper shot at Europe with his own settled team as explained above, but he HAS shown that given that team, and without the biggest off-field problems our club has ever seen, he can do a job. Something Le Guen showed nothing of the sort on the park. Now you're showing not that you have no logic behind what you say. Despite a ten point deduction, an off-field melt down, players having their contracts negotiated down to 25%, you think McCoist should have won the league? I'm sorry but you don't even seem sane to me. But the kicker is that if you lose the dressing room and are 17 points behind, that's ok as long as you have a wee run in Europe? Buy your standards for Ally, PLG should have been AT LEAST 17points AHEAD at the halfway point. You do for PLG don't you? But if you don't get the psychological side of things then you really don't understand humans or sport. They are not robots or computer games. How well will you work if forced to take a 75% pay cut or in fact not even know if you're going to be paid? This is the problem with the Anti-Ally stuff, there is just no wisdom in it whatsoever. A year when we are put out of business and finish second is being patient? Wow! I've no idea which part of my post you're rebutting with your next few paragraphs so will edit them out. No it's just my conclusion. I suppose I went through the same thing with Walter Smith. I didn't think he was spectacular but seemed to be doing a job and deserved time. Then he did a fantastic job. I've been pretty consistent and have the same criteria for all managers and know when they have to go - I felt that way for Advocaat, Eck and PLG due to their league results. When you compare the money they all had, Advocaat should at least have been challenging for the title every season and not finish more than a few points behind at worst. Eck should at have least be finishing within touching distance of Celtic and definitely ahead of Hearts. PLG should have at the very, very, very worst, less than 10 points behind Celtic at the halfway stage. Walter Smith was cheated out of his first title and won the next three, job done. McCoist could only be expected to finish second under the circumstances and he did that comfortably - definitely good enough. But I don't see how you can make a judgement on ANY manager under those circumstances. The very least you could do is give Ally a full season where we are not going out of business - and asking for perfection is ludicrous, especially from someone who obviously doesn't hold himself to even average standards.

I love the "blown a 15 point lead" bit. If you're useless, how do you get a 15pt lead in the first place? Imagine having a runner who's miles ahead in race and then halfway round gets an injury, he then gets a ten second stop/start penalty because his coach didn't fill in a form properly and still finishes comfortably second. Do you think that guy is useless or that he has potential?

You talk like the players have never played football before - or at least are at a much lower level than you are. You're saying players of this standard need the manager to tell them how to play, how to "show for the ball"? Since when do professional footballers need to be micromanaged? And how is that even possible? Players would be so busy listening to their manager that the opposition would be flying past them. A manager gets to talk to his team twice and give them his tactics for the game. However, a game is not like chess where you can study the board, it's a whirlwind where some of the time you are just playing the best move you see at the time - like when a defender is under pressure or has no obvious constructive pass to play, he punts it and quite right too. It's always shit when a defender gets caught in position near his own goal. Players know how to play, it's just not always easy to play the way you want to and that happens at all levels of football.

Actually they only got stick for doing a hell of a lot worse than Ally - and that's without the troubles we've had in the last year - and I'll bet you were one of those saying they both needed more time. PLG was 17 points behind in half a season. Ally finished 20points behind in a whole season with a 10 point penalty and 3 losses in four after we went into administration. Eck finished third - when did Ally do that? Despite winning two titles, Eck averaged about 10 points behind Celtic for every year in charge. Basically with those three it's like putting three runners in a race, but you put a ball and chain round one's ankle, he still wins but you want to criticise him the most and give the other two another chance. I wan't to see how Ally does without the ball and chain. If he can be one of the better ones with it, what is he like without it?

How has he been a complete flop? You haven't even seen him manage yet with a decent amount of stability at the club. In the most stable time we had he had one of the best starts to a season we've ever had. But you can tell you are just make it up to how you want to see it. You have no consistent basis to judge a manager and as you incredibly weird backing of PLG shows. THAT guy was a flop and was 17 points behind Celtic and out of two cups at the halfway stage. The football on show was about the worst I've seen at Rangers since Souness came and the first time I was not confident about winning any game due to what was happening on the park. The guy created his own crisis but didn't have the tenacity to work through it. McCoist has had the tenacity, guts and loyalty to work through the worst time in our 140 year existence. He's shown he can manage when he gets his team together and the worst you can say about him is that he's not brilliant before he's assembled his team and not a complete genius when the club goes into meltdown. Where would you expect Rangers to come with a ten point penalty in a season? A comfortable second? Ally was SUCCESSFUL in achieving that despite losing his best players and having to cope with the psychological effects of cutting the wages of his squad by 75%, never mind the rest of the psychological effects of the off the park problems. PLG was struggling to achieve second with a decent budget and no effects of administration including the 10 point deduction. There are plenty on here who don't think Ally is the best manager in the world or are blind to anything. The difference is that we're intelligent enough to give reasonable and consistent measurements of a manager's tenure. We also insightful enough to know when mitigation is in order. We also don't make up stuff just to disparage a current manager of the team we support. A manager is generally judged by his league position - just ask Kenny Dalgleish. The trouble with cups is that they are one offs and difficult to judge. In the circumstances Ally achieved enough there to keep him in the job. I've already had a post which described Alliy's season as a scenario in a football manager game. Even in a game, no-one would put up with what he did, finish comfortably second and put up with being sacked. You'd be asking for your money back. Now imagine you're playing the game and have you club newco'ed, you lose 23 players for next to nothing, are relegated 3 divisions, are not allowed a pre-season, have a transfer embargo coming up, you're club is struggling for investment, you need to bring in free players who are of a standard but are willing to play in the bottom division but are not allowed to do so until the day before your first game, you have two international players who are not sure what they want to do etc, etc. You play three games with two wins and a draw and are sacked... Would you seriously call that game fair? I think you need to bugger off and support Man City, if you're calling McCoist a disgrace for last season, you know nothing about football or even life. You're better off with the Disney world of bored billionaires, you're just not equipped to deal with the ups and downs of the real world.

There is no doubt in my mind that the uncertainty off the park in November/December must have affected our performances on the park. The contrast with our form before that is just too stark.

Out of the title? We lost the title by 20 points, take away the 10 point penalty and the 9 points we lost in the first four games post admin and you're looking at ONE POINT in it and that's despite the loss to Celtic after the league was over We were actually FOUR points behind Celtic when we went into admin. AND before you bring out the myth that we were on a downward spriral, before admin our form was coming back with four wins and a draw with fourteen goals to three. Even the Celtic game we lost before that was reliant on dodgy refereeing decisions.

I agree, we'll probably win some thing like ten games in a row and then, after one draw, the wins will be glossed over as poor ones that anyone's granny could have achieved, and the usual suspects will be back here calling for Ally's head.

"Virgin Stadium"?

When is Regan's hearing for bringing the game into disrepute on multiple occasions?

PS We'll like be ranked something like 300th in the team rankings when we get back. On a par with St Johnstone. To start with we'll always be on the unseeded side of the draw.

I find it strange when people don't use free choice to be honest. It sounds a bit like an arranged marriage...

As I've said before, we're already so far down the rankings after this season (28th at the moment) that moving up or down say 7 places makes little difference apart from the odd qualifying round for second or third in the league for the Europa league. For us, one earlier round should really be a formality against a very small club before we meet the likes of Spartak Moskow. Cheering on other Scottish teams will not increase their chances - or ours. Europe is going to be difficult no matter what they do and I can't actually see them doing much at all - except Celtic possibly qualifying for the Europa league. It will make you a happier person if you let yourself enjoy seeing SPL teams getting pumped. Doing otherwise will just leave you miserable and confused. But everyone can take their choice. I am so sick of the SPL that I see no affiliation with them whatsoever now and no longer have a desire for their success in Europe. Maybe happiness is all about seeing positives no matter the result which we can't control in any case, and in this scenario if you enjoy them losing you gain that positive if they do, and if they win, you can think about it's good for the coefficient, therefore good for us.

Young and Spence were both jokes when they came along and we laughed, then they are around for a while and suddenly they think they are someone big.

Judging by the comments from both sides and the fact he went to St Johnstone, I would say it wasn't about money. It sounds to me like Green pulled the plug due to signing two other strikers. I would presume this was for definitive reasons eg better value or fit better in the team.

Haven't had time to explore but the front page looks clean, attractive and modern. Like it.

Good to see Goian staying although the sceptic in me thinks the biggest influence was that he'd struggle to get a similar wage elsewhere at his age. At least he's saying the right things and one hopes that he believes it to some extent and will be motivated to play and become a hero rather than just go through the motions and pocket the wage. Some of the players must be feeling the sense of anticipation and tangible excitement for the adventure of going back up the leagues and if they show the right attitude, playing against a lower standard of player must be quite enjoyable a lot of the time. It sure beats a better bunch of players taking the piss out of you or a competitive SPL side who are not only up for it but are also kicking you off the park. It may not be as challenging, but it should be more fun - they just have to look at Gazza's performances for that as even the best SPL players were several levels below him, and he relished it.

I started supporting Rangers when I was about six or seven as having a favoured club seemed mandatory for a young boy in Saltcoats at and the question was always, “Who do you support, Rangers or Celtic?” and so there appeared to be only two available choices. I had no idea who to choose as I didn’t know much about football teams then apart from the mandatory game of football at playtime. I don’t remember it being on telly much and with three older sisters it was difficult enough just to watch Space 1999 with Top of the Pops on the other side. Most families usually only had one TV in those days. My Grandpa wasn’t into football and neither was my father, who was also away for long periods in the Merchant Navy so had no adult to influence me. I chose Rangers as I really like the sound of the name and my favourite colour was and is blue. My older brother also chose Rangers but I only became aware of this after I had made my choice and he never really embraced the club in the way I did and it was more of a passing interest for him rather than the passion I developed. I’m pretty sure he thought spending time on a fans forum was actually a bit sad and he didn’t attend many games. So while six year old was a bit young to really appreciate the actuality of the football team you choose to support, it instead mostly manifested itself in the collection and swapping of football cards that came with a pack of chewing gum. There were plenty of Celtic fans also around the school that would swap you a load of Rangers cards for one Celtic one they were missing so I ironically always wanted to get one of those cards when I opened the pack. Because my brother was also collecting the cards he convinced me it made sense that only one of us should collect the Rangers ones and the other should collect another team. So being the younger one and having already spurned Celtic, I reluctantly started collecting Aberdeen cards. However, in 1978 when my brother started gloating to me that his club had beaten mine in the League and Cup to win the treble, I realised that I was very happy about that as Rangers were really the team I wanted to win and from then on I was 100% positive about who I supported and no-one could convince me otherwise. It was the 1978 world cup where I really started to watch football, at least on the telly but I do remember beforehand that when being sent to the shop to get a paper I read my the first news article that I ever enjoyed – as while practicing my new reading skills, newspapers seemed so boring. It was on the back page and was about Derek Johnstone scoring over 40 goals in one season. I was proud of him for being a Rangers player and he became my favourite footballer for a while. I really got into the world cup and although Scotland had a bad couple of games the Dutch game was brilliant capped by that goal by Archie Gemmell. However, the one thing I couldn’t get my head round was why Derek never played – he was the most prolific goal-scorer Scotland had and he stayed on the bench. I blamed Ally McLeod for this and for Scotland not getting to the next round. As he was a Rangers player and also my favourite was incredibly disappointing. From then on I was always reading the back pages about Rangers and for the first time really started following every result. I already knew all the players names and faces from the cards and now I could read about their exploits. I also discovered the joys of Sportscene and Scotsport (my sisters were now well into their mid to late teens, one had left home and the other two were out all the time) and got my first Rangers top for my birthday which I used to wear all the time – although was forced to wear a smart v-neck over it for school. Next came the obligatory Subbuteo team as well as a couple of scarfs and flags. I didin’t start attending games until my mother was remarried to a Rangers fan who took me along now and again starting at the age of eleven, although I was never allowed to see an Old Firm match in the flesh as my mother wouldn’t allow it. This was at the time of the rebuilding of Ibrox and I remember being seated in the Copeland road stand facing the opposing Broomloan Road stand and the Main Stand to the left. On the right was just a building site that morphed each time I went into a more and more complete stand which I was dying to sit in and eventually did. Once complete I seen it as the best stadium in Britain as it was the most modern and had the most seats, and was very proud of it and have been ever since.