Frankie
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Everything posted by Frankie
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At the risk of going round in circles, the directives announced to the fans by the club were claimed to be the UEFA directives according to the Joint Club/Supporter statement which was made publicly available on a variety of official and unofficial media. These directives also do specifically mention TBB being 'prohibited'. Although I do concede that information is not available directly from UEFA - even if their previous comments would indicate the directives were theirs. You concede the club were punished for discriminatory chanting. What chants were these then if it wasn't TBB? By immediate and obvious association (if not clear-cut wording) of course that song now becomes proscribed by that organisation. I do appreciate I'm being obstinate myself here but I am basing my opinion on information which is openly available and reasonably clear enough to suggest UEFA did fine us because of TBB and so that song is now proscribed by them as per the directives attributed to them publicly by Rangers. If these directives and their source are false, then that does become fraud - my words not yours obviously - but a fair description of the situation. Somehow I think UEFA would have something to say about that if it were the case.
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Great work by Ian and the Founders Committee on this part of their project... Just goes to show what can be achieved by committed fans.
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Why is Kevin Thomson not in the Scotland Squad ?
Frankie replied to DJBlue72's topic in Rangers Chat
I agree the quality may not always be better but the differing styles may help their game and improve their experience. -
Why is Kevin Thomson not in the Scotland Squad ?
Frankie replied to DJBlue72's topic in Rangers Chat
I'd like to see our players improve by playing in international fixtures. But I'd also rather they stayed fully fit which isn't guaranteed unfortunately.. see Lafferty (again) and Miller (again). -
Why is Kevin Thomson not in the Scotland Squad ?
Frankie replied to DJBlue72's topic in Rangers Chat
Can only assume it is his current combined lack of international experience and fitness... Burely doesn't have much consistency in that regard though. -
Not everyone can afford Sky...
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Lafferty to undergo scan on knee - could be out for 2 weeks!
Frankie replied to a topic in Rangers Chat
Bloody joke - guy is really injury prone which is a shame as I think he has a load of potential if he could just get a run of games... -
So do you think Rangers FC fraudulently falsified the UEFA directives? That's not emotive language just language that covers what you are saying has happened. UEFA fined the club for discriminatory chanting based on the Billy Boys song which they specifically mentioned was the song involved in the case. They also said they'd communicate the directives decided because of this to the club - who in turn had to communicate them to the fans. As far as I can see that has been done - even if the actual directives/letter may or may not have been seen by the fans involved. Certainly the directives seem to be suitable given the UEFA statements during the case. I do think the facts speak for themselves - even if the evidence may not be as clear as it could be to satisfy the more obstinate of us... As B_S has said, I'm going to try a different tact on this. Doubt it will work actually but it will be worth a try...
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The club have made the point about the UEFA ban in public. IIRC, the Joint Club/Supporter Statement I quoted from the official RFC fans group Assembly website was also available on the old official club website at the time. The former chairman himself also mentioned the directive in the 2006/07 Wee Blue Book (page 4). http://www.freewebs.com/ncrangersclub/pdf/wee%20blue%20book.pdf The papers at the time also widely quoted from that statement (one example follows): http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17207815&method=full&siteid=66633&headline=uefa-ban-billy-boys-name_page.html Furthermore, by carrying out the third directive before every Rangers game at Ibrox, that also shows the club giving official credence to the UEFA actions. Again, can I ask you what you think UEFA fined us for if it wasn't for singing a song they now judge sectarian and thus unacceptable? http://www.rangersassembly.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=41 The statement clearly says UEFA have banned the Billy Boys via the directive which originated from the official UEFA website saying that was the song we were under investigation about. But there is evidence that they did. Rangers, the media and UEFA themselves have all mention that specific song in the time-line surrounding the fine placed upon us. As such, I believe UEFA did write the directive because of the available evidence even it may not be as clear as it should be. Because, as I said, they're not overly interested in going back a 3 year old subject that made them look stupid. I think the whole subject was badly handled by the club. And it is one of the main reasons why our support is so estranged from the club and one of the main reasons why our support is so disjointed in regard to each other. I accept that and don't blame anyone for still being frustrated now. I am as well. However, I don't believe the club fraudulently falsified UEFA directives just because UEFA may not have specifically mentioned the song in their conclusive website judgement - after mentioning it clearly on the way to that judgement.
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No, the club did claim UEFA banned the song - this is clear in the link I provided entitled 'Joint supporter/club Statement' (which also appeared on the old Rangers webste IIRC). Again, I don't know if the club wrote these 'directives' themselves but I can't imagine UEFA would be overly happy if they were being falsely implicated in the banning of a song. I believe various people have brought this to their attention to try and achieve clarity but it seems they're not overly interested in doing this to independent supporters. I'd have thought their disciplinary actions would be a matter of public record for fans directly affected by such directives but I myself have been unable to find out more. I don't think this adds to any conspiracy theory though - it just proves they would rather conveniently forget the while issue which, to be fair, made them look rather daft as well. I've actually just thought of another route here though. I may give that a go next week....
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They did produce a letter I believe - but I don't think copies were made available to the groups present due to the club not wanting aspects of it to be made public for whatever reason. Obviously they did quote from the alleged directive on the Assembly website though.
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Sorry I know you've said you've posted your last word on this but I was all away at a wedding all day/night yesterday so didn't get a chance to respond... Can I ask you what you think UEFA fined us for then if it wasn't for singing a song they now judge sectarian and thus unacceptable? You said the chant hadn't been specifically mentioned but it was twice - even if an outright ban wasn't confirmed by them after the fact. What do you think they would do if we continued to sing that song? Because, even if they wanted to, they wouldn't be allowed to ignore it. It's like saying that Inter Milan were fined for monkey chants but the monkey chants aren't banned because they weren't specifically mentioned on their website when the fine was announced for racism. Of course the monkey chants are banned and of course they'll act again if the club's fans use them. That isn't suggestion just common sense. IMO, the same applies to the Billy Boys - even if I appreciate that the situation could have been handled by the club and the supporters groups who met with them to discuss the fall-out from the UEFA punishment. PS: I would like to see the song return (sans ****** obviously) but I think it is impossible to guarantee it would work in certain situations.
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Did you read the links I provided? When UEFA cleared us they specifically referred to the following: "In examining the alleged discriminatory chants, the Control & Disciplinary Body admitted that the nature of the song concerned ââ?¬â?? ââ?¬Å?Billy Boysââ?¬Â - related to a social problem in Scotland." As such, when they appealed that decision and found us guilty, of course that was the song they were going to ban as it was the focus of the disciplinary action. "The directives themselves will be communicated to Rangers along with the full written grounds for the disciplinary decision." This suggests UEFA then sent directives to the club so I really cannot see where the conspiracy that BB isn't banned comes from. Sure it isn't worded exactly how we'd like but it seems plain enough to me especially when viewed along with the other circumstantial evidence posted. Of course whether the club should have done more is a different argument.
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Of course it is. Which is what Rangers should have said publicly at the time and every time we are challenged on our behaviour since. Spiers is right that 'whataboutery' is tiresome but you can't have one rule for some and one rule for others. If that happens then society itself breaks down. The whole thing is a sham mate - see my report of last year on it. http://www.gersnetonline.co.uk/newsite/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=670&Itemid=2 The full document is available here: http://ww.gersnetonline.co.uk/SIF_Sham.pdf What has happened since then? http://www.gersnetonline.co.uk/newsite/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=740&Itemid=2 I dare you to try and be an active citizen and get involved with that committee as I have. Not so much promotion but ignore I can assure you.
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The other club's won't be highlighted because their versions are not 'sectarian'. I would thought they could be argued as 'unacceptable' though but, as we know, the usual crusaders are only interested in one club in that regard. To be fair to the club, I'm pretty sure they highlighted that inconsistency when the 'go home' song was under scrutiny. They need to do more than that though if they want to show they share our frustration. This brings us back to Tannochside's post RE: the media discussion at the Ibrox Q&A 2 weeks back. We need to examine ways ourselves of applying pressure on the media irrespective of what the club do. Being more organised via STS and the Assembly may help us achieve a Herald/Spiers type result or better.
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A fair analysis. The fact that word is now apparently illegal in a football (and social) context means there is no going back now. As such, Rangers will see allowing a sanitised version of the song too dangerous as the f word will creep back in eventually.
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"any form of ââ?¬Ë?Billy Boysââ?¬â?¢ songs is strictly prohibited." comes from the alleged directive given to Rangers and Rangers only. As such, any version of the song (changed words or not) sung by our support appears to be banned. FWIW, I doubt UEFA would care less if we sang it again. However, they'd be pressurised by the usual hypocrites once again.
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We could not challenge the appeal result via UEFA.
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Double-sided mate - two scarfs...
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I think that is exactly what happened calscot... Unfortunately, unlike Arsenal with regard to Eduardo for example, we didn't make the point of inconsistency and imbalance after the fact which we should have done.
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This season we have two different designs on sale, one in the traditional Charles Rennie Mackintosh font* and the other in a more 'modern' font** we have used in some of our banners and members merchandise. Scarves are �£8 each including free p&p (UK only). Any Bears from overseas looking to purchase one (or both!) of these scarves should hit the contact us button on the website and we will work out the cost of postage to wherever you may be. http://theblueorder.co.uk/joomla/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=7&Itemid=40&vmcchk=1&Itemid=40 Goes without saying that all profits go towards displays at Ibrox and elsewhere. * **
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True but I'm not overly worried about the speed of this. In fact, I'd actually prefer we took our time on this to fully investigate issues ourselves so we can go to the club with extremely strong arguments for our point of view. If we do that alongside improving the Assembly and unifying supporters, then we become much more credible across the board.
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I don't think it was a Rangers directive. Here's a time line I posted a while back in another thread which quotes from this allege directive after UEFA admitted publicly they were punishing us for the Billy Boys song. 1. UEFA Open Proceedings after Villarreal match (09/03/2006) http://www.uefa.com/uefa/Keytopics/kind=512/newsId=402870.html 2. UEFA Fine Rangers but take no action against BB (13/04/2006) http://www.uefa.com/uefa/keytopics/kind=512/newsid=413514.html 3. UEFA (Herr Kapl - Spiers' mole) appeal their own decision and over-turn BB decision (24/05/2006) http://www.uefa.com/uefa/keytopics/kind=512/newsid=424237.html 4. Rangers Meet with Fans Groups over said action (RST, Assembly, Association, FF) (08/06/2006) http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/low/football/teams/r/rangers/5064472.stm 5. Further meeting based on receipt of written UEFA Report (RST, Assembly, FF, TBO) (23/07/2006) http://www.rangersassembly.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=41 That meeting included the following statement: Did Rangers word it themselves? Did UEFA word it? Did both word it together? All fair questions but the fact is UEFA did punish us so something had to be done. I don't believe Rangers could appeal the UEFA appeal unless they went to the COA.
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Sorry MF but while I've not seen the official directive myself I still think it exists - too much circumstantial evidence to think otherwise. But, there is no reason why the issue can't be brought up at a future Fans Forum or even the club AGM to request a copy of the official document is made available.
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All apart from the GersForum admin who had to call off on the day due to illness. However, they are still interested in working within the project.