Juancornetto 1 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Dropping the case could be a smart move for HMRC if they feel like they can't achieve a complete victory. The door would still be opened to pursue some of the 4,000 other companies who have used EBT's for salaries or bonuses and use the RFC case as a learning experience. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 You get convictions whether it's criminal or not. I am being pedantic, and I could also be wrong, but in a tax case where the case being considered is one of tax avoidance there is no "conviction" - it would be a "judgement" in favour of one of the parties. If it were a case of evasion there would probably be a conviction. Evasion is illegal and would therefore open the door to criminal proceedings and a possible "conviction" Avoidance is legal and would only result in a judgement against one party. Perhaps you meant judgement Gav ? Tax proceedings are different from legal proceedings, unless dealing with evasion, which will ultimately be criminal proceedings against the offending party. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazza_8 233 Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Not having a pop mate, but how can you get convicted of doing something that's legal. I meant you can be convicted in a civil court. It's not a criminal conviction but a conviction all the same. Criminal - The state is prosecuting an individual for breaking a law which is a crime against the state. (It could also be federal, but it is always the government against the individual). If you lose you are sent to prison as punishment. Civil - One individual (or company) feels wronged by another individual (or company) and sues to be compensated monetarily. This has nothing to do with the government. If you lose, you pay damages and cannot be sent to prison. Edited January 19, 2012 by Gazza_8 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I meant you can be convicted in a civil court. It's not a criminal conviction but a conviction all the same. Criminal - The state is prosecuting an individual for breaking a law which is a crime against the state. (It could also be federal, but it is always the government against the individual). If you lose you are sent to prison as punishment. Civil - One individual (or company) feels wronged by another individual (or company) and sues to be compensated monetarily. This has nothing to do with the government. If you lose, you pay damages and cannot be sent to prison. I might be misunderstanding your original post so apologies if so. This is neither a criminal NOR a civil court case. It is a tax tribunal. There wouldnt be a conviction given this is about tax avoidance. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazza_8 233 Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 I might be misunderstanding your original post so apologies if so. This is neither a criminal NOR a civil court case. It is a tax tribunal. There wouldnt be a conviction given this is about tax avoidance. Anything other than criminal and I lose interest. However, my mum works in the courts as has covered tax cases where one individual/company has been convicted against another. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Anything other than criminal and I lose interest. However, my mum works in the courts as has covered tax cases where one individual/company has been convicted against another. Doesnt sound like a tribunal to me. I am no expert though. There may also be a difference when it is company vs company as opposed to company vs government. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedell 5,342 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 There wouldnt be a conviction given this is about tax avoidance. Agreed. I doubt that tax evasion would come into it if the ruling goes against us. We were quite open about what we were doing, disclosing the use of a trust in the accounts each year, a copy of which would be sent to HMRC, so I can't see that they would ever look to get us for evasion. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Agreed. I doubt that tax evasion would come into it if the ruling goes against us. We were quite open about what we were doing, disclosing the use of a trust in the accounts each year, a copy of which would be sent to HMRC, so I can't see that they would ever look to get us for evasion. Yup, I could be wrong because I dont have intimate knowledge but it has seemed the whole way along in this process that it has been about avoidance, not evasion. EBT's are legal and I would think that if we lose based on structure that is still not evasion, just a poorly contrusted legal scheme. That is, to my mind, still avoidance. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dutchy Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Anyway, the only real reason I can think of - with regard to a total collapse of their case - might be that while these EBT schemes were deemed illegal since 2010, a predating of MIH's use of them was thrown out by the judge. I'm more inclined to go along with this intepretation as there was great talk during the sentancing of the Steven Lawrence killers only being given a sentance due to their age at the time of the offence. They got 2 years more than the max possible, due mainly to the public outcry. I also remember reading a couple of years ago that Portsmouth were found not liable of this very same offence. Who knows? Here's hoping. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
capstans 0 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Somewhat strangely the RTC site is now questioning if the tribunal has indeed reached its final sitting. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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