TRS: Rangers, Hearts and the Case of Wee Thistle

[RANGERRAB 3,258]

" The new owner, having no money, does what every businessman in this situation should to help their cash flow and stops paying all unnecessary expenses. A harsh reality of business is the first such payments that should cease when any company has cash shortages are anything to HMRC."

 

"Should"?

 

If the new owner had no money then how the hell did he manage to acquire the business in the first place ?

[trueblue 64 53]

Good article but the non payment of PAYE turned a lot of genuine neutrals against us. The papers did'nt help with their stories about how many nurses you can get for 9M or how many life saving operations it would buy.

[RANGERRAB 3,258]

This is a fine article by Douglas Cameron which is ultimately referring to Whyte's takeover and comparing it to Hertz as well as the HMRC issues.However there's always been three questions I've wanted answered regarding Whyte's 'acquisition' of Rangers and the HMRC issues at that time:

 

1) did SDM sell willingly to Whyte or was he forced to do so by LBG?

(As I'm sure we're all aware LBG's Scottish business division was headed by Manus J FUllerton & Archibald Gerard Kane at that time. guess who they support? Fullerton , of course, is/was involved with the CElt@c trust)

2) did John Reid use his political influence to get HMRC to pursue Rangers for a fictitious EBT tax bill which never existed?

( this made Rangers virtually unsellable to any respectable purchaser until 'you-know-who' came along)

3) at what point did Regan's SFA become aware Whyte was withholding PAYE/NI ? Were they advised by JT in september2011? If so why did they take no action until Rangers went into administration on Feb14 2012? Whyte was of course banned for life from Scottish football but did the SFA know all along what he was up to?

 

In short Whyte was a car crash waiting to happen the minute he came thru the front doors at Ibrox. Then chairman AJ said as much at the time and how chillingly accurate that turned out to be. But was it all orchestrated by our enemies & detractors I ask ? I believe it was

[andy steel 0]

Points taken Craig & TinMan, and I acknowledge yous know much more about this than I - not a proud boast, given my knowledge is zero, but true enough anyway.

 

Just the same, it doesn't sit right. I kinda held us to be better than your average business. Of course now I know better but it leaves a bad taste just the same.

[RANGERRAB 3,258]

Good luck to hearts

 

Yes good luck so long as the SFA & SPFL are consistent in their punishments which they won't be.

Perhaps seeing as they've given Hertz the lions share of this seasons prize money they'll be so good as give Rangers theirs from the end of season 2011-12 which they have withheld. Happy with that GS?

[the gunslinger 3,366]

Happy with hearts punishments so far yes. Let's not forget green signed over our prize money.

[Mountain Bear 0]

Actually, I disagree with quite a lot of that article.

 

1. HMRC didn't make a "mistake" in the Big Tax Case, we chose to operate a very aggressive tax avoidance scheme on a very large scale, without adequately assessing the scale of the risk should we be challenged. They lost (subject to appeal) but they had enough of a case to get it to a First Tier Tax Tribuneral.

 

2. I have no issue with the bank getting it's money back in full, and in the process ensuring that HMRC couldn't recover their debt. The bank was a secured creditor and ranked ahead of HMRC just as secured creditors do elsewhere every day of the week. The bank may have lent too much to MIH, but they (and we) took it. If we didn't like what the bank was asking for we could have rebanked - oh wait, no-one else would touch us because we had a massive contingent tax liability hanging over us because we'd taken a huge risk.

 

3. I don't buy this HMRC culpability argument either. WE took the massive gamble, not them. Did they allow Whyte too much slack once he was in control? Perhaps, but that's like blaming the police for a driving ban incurred while speeding at 100mph, on the basis that they should have stopped and fined you when you were only doing 80mph.

 

4. We need to accept that you can't divorce the club completely from the actions of the balmpot who was running us at the time. Lest we forget, he didn't just stop paying HMRC, he deducted PAYE from salaries and then kept it. That's theft in most people's book. But if every business could just say "bad boys did it and ran away" washing their hands of the actions of their executives without any consequences, there would be economic anarchy.

 

The whole scenario was a giant clusterf**k, an omnishambles even. We may have been hugely unfortunate in the way the combination of circumstances transpired against us, but the roots of our downfall lie at our own door. Constantly trying to push ALL of the blame elsewhere is one of the reasons why we didn't get the degree of sympathy from others that we'd have hoped for.

 

Time to move on people and ensure that never again are we so remote and disengaged from the running of our Club.

 

That's why I want to see genuine fan influence / ownership.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RANGERRAB 3,258]

Actually, I disagree with quite a lot of that article.

 

1. HMRC didn't make a "mistake" in the Big Tax Case, we chose to operate a very aggressive tax avoidance scheme on a very large scale, without adequately assessing the scale of the risk should we be challenged. They lost (subject to appeal) but they had enough of a case to get it to a First Tier Tax Tribuneral.

 

2. I have no issue with the bank getting it's money back in full, and in the process ensuring that HMRC couldn't recover their debt. The bank was a secured creditor and ranked ahead of HMRC just as secured creditors do elsewhere every day of the week. The bank may have lent too much to MIH, but they (and we) took it. If we didn't like what the bank was asking for we could have rebanked - oh wait, no-one else would touch us because we had a massive contingent tax liability hanging over us because we'd taken a huge risk.

 

3. I don't buy this HMRC culpability argument either. WE took the massive gamble, not them. Did they allow Whyte too much slack once he was in control? Perhaps, but that's like blaming the police for a driving ban incurred while speeding at 100mph, on the basis that they should have stopped and fined you when you were only doing 80mph.

 

4. We need to accept that you can't divorce the club completely from the actions of the balmpot who was running us at the time. Lest we forget, he didn't just stop paying HMRC, he deducted PAYE from salaries and then kept it. That's theft in most people's book. But if every business could just say "bad boys did it and ran away" washing their hands of the actions of their executives without any consequences, there would be economic anarchy.

 

The whole scenario was a giant clusterf**k, an omnishambles even. We may have been hugely unfortunate in the way the combination of circumstances transpired against us, but the roots of our downfall lie at our own door. Constantly trying to push ALL of the blame elsewhere is one of the reasons why we didn't get the degree of sympathy from others that we'd have hoped for.

 

Time to move on people and ensure that never again are we so remote and disengaged from the running of our Club.

 

That's why I want to see genuine fan influence / ownership.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

1. What was different about our EBT scheme compared to the thousands of UK companies who used them as perfectly legal tax avoidance until the loophole was closed in 2010?

2 Rangers debt was 3 percent of the MIH debt of £700m yet the bank seems far more concerned with the Rangers debt. why?

I believe it gave even more money to SDM after he'd sold Rangers to Whyte.Again why ?

3.from CA's I know you late pay PAYE/NI at your peril. Do it once and you get a stern warning .Do it twice and they'll invite themselves into your business. TBH I think HMRC knew what would happen once Whyte got Rangers

4. I seem to recall D&P stating on more than one occasion the actions of the individual had to be separated.However my main concern is how he got Rangers in the first place. AJ's words at the time of Whyte's takeover will haunt me til my dying day

[RANGERRAB 3,258]

Happy with hearts punishments so far yes. Let's not forget green signed over our prize money.

 

Blackmailed you mean. if he didn't the SFA membership wouldn't be transferred from oldco to newco. Let's see if that happens to Hertz if they go to a newco if BDO can't get their shares from UKIOS

[the gunslinger 3,366]

Let's also remember d and p sold it to green for 50k that's right 2 million cash bought for 50k.

 

Creditors would be going nuts.