Zappa 0 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) Who regards it as that? Mostly it is a perception from the 70's 80's. If you want a good indication then you really also have to look and see how many players they actually buy. I am not interested enough to check it all out but as I said before there were seasons when they had players watching from the stand who never pulled on a shirt for months. Just to reiterate Ajax also buy youth players in at an older age and present them as their own. Feynoord have been voted the best football academy in Holland for years in a row. Ajax might not have produced as many home grown stars in recent years, but nonetheless, across ALL of their academy age groups over the past 5 years they've apparently won 22 titles & cups, which is a very good record. What about the previous 5 years (2005-2010)?? Same again! 22 titles & cups across their youth system age groups. That really doesn't sound too shabby to me. Maybe Feynoord currently have the better academy although I genuinely don't know what parameters 'the best academy' is based on. What I do think though, is that the quality of a top football academy should be judged over a longer period than just a few seasons because the quantity of high quality players the top academies produce will fluctuate, not just from year to year, but from decade to decade and all of the smaller periods in between. Edited July 13, 2015 by Zappa 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 2,499 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) Ajax might not have produced as many home grown stars in recent years, but nonetheless, across ALL of their academy age groups over the past 5 years they've apparently won 22 titles & cups, which is a very good record. What about the previous 5 years (2005-2010)?? Same again! 22 titles & cups across their youth system age groups. That really doesn't sound too shabby to me. Maybe Feynoord currently have the better academy although I genuinely don't know what parameters 'the best academy' is based on. What I do think though, is that the quality of a top football academy should be judged over a longer period than just a few seasons because the quantity of high quality players the top academies produce will fluctuate, not just from year to year, but from decade to decade and all of the smaller periods in between. I am pretty sure it is judged on the amount of players playing in prof football that Ajax were supposed to have developed. The fact remains many of the players Ajax claim to have developed they didn't in fact develop. If you look at the Ajax team now as sir Barr. did then it looks impressive with nearly all their players coming from their youth system. It is only under closer scrutiny that you can see that most players only played in young Ajax and never played in any other youth team for them. What Ajax did do at an early stage was put a scouting system in place that covered far and wide while other teams were only concentrating on local talent. Personally I don't really care as I don't support any Dutch team but i am just trying to point out that the Ajax youth system is not as great as it is made out to be, In May 2010, Feyenoord Academy won the Rinus Michels Award for best youth academy in the Netherlands for the first time. Ajax and Sparta Rotterdam were the other nominees. Feyenoord Academy won the award for its innovation within the academy, the overall success of its teams in the national youth leagues and the high amount of players in the national youth teams.[1] The Feyenoord Academy continued to win the award in the four consecutive years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feyenoord_Academy_%28Varkenoord%29 Edited July 13, 2015 by pete 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Barristan Selmy 222 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) Might do the numbers this weekend on how many youths have played for the first team for us in the last 3 years, its a guess right now but I think we will have more than ajax. That's not to say they are a better standard. Standard wise we were far lower than ajax. Think we had 13 players in 2014 out with us who playedfor us from 15-18 years old who were playing in the top leagues in Europe(doesn't include English championship or any league lower than top division) .collated by cies football factory. pretty good for the amount we spend on our academy especially when you added up their combined transfer costs. Unfortunately very little went to us. Are you honestly still going with this? May I direct you to the previous post I made that you didn't reply to? We have had THREE regulars in the last few years from our youth team. Our youth development is deplorable. Edited July 13, 2015 by Ser Barristan Selmy 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 2,499 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) Are you honestly still going with this? May I direct you to the previous post I made that you didn't reply to? We have had THREE regulars in the last few years from our youth team. Our youth development is deplorable. In a recent survey Ajax were found to have the best Acadamy in Europe as they had 69 players playing across Europe who came through their youth system. Going back to my other posts that number is a red herring as Ajax probably didn't develop a lot of them but do claim to have. Jan Vertonghen and Toby Alderweireld being an example as they only joined Ajax as older youth players. Now I will be honest here and Ajax do have a working relationship with Germinal Beerschot so it is possible Ajax were steering them at an earlier age but both were in fact Belgian youth internationals before joining Ajax as older youth players who were developed in Belgium. The Ajax academy does take the credit for for developing them in the survey so in my view it is not totally fair. There are many more of the 69 players who only joined Ajax at a later youth age. Edited July 13, 2015 by pete 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trublusince1982 243 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Are you honestly still going with this? May I direct you to the previous post I made that you didn't reply to? We have had THREE regulars in the last few years from our youth team. Our youth development is deplorable. Didn't reply because it makes no sense. You fail again to listen when told the standard of player or the amount of games does not matter. You then recall off the top of your head roughly the same amount of players that ajax have promoted from youth to first team as I have for rangers. Are you arguing my point or yours? If ajax are doing well then so are we. If you think ajax are in top ten for promoting players then we must be close. As said will do the numbers at the weekend if I get a chance but I think you are failing to grasp the criteria. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Barristan Selmy 222 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Didn't reply because it makes no sense. You fail again to listen when told the standard of player or the amount of games does not matter. You then recall off the top of your head roughly the same amount of players that ajax have promoted from youth to first team as I have for rangers. Are you arguing my point or yours? If ajax are doing well then so are we. If you think ajax are in top ten for promoting players then we must be close. As said will do the numbers at the weekend if I get a chance but I think you are failing to grasp the criteria. How does players not featuring 'not matter'? What is the point if they don't feature? You listed players who were out on loan last season and ones who were nowhere near the first team. What exactly is your point? Ajax play their youngsters regularly, we don't. They also make large sums from selling their players, we rarely get anything. What an absolutely ridiculous comparison. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trublusince1982 243 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) How does players not featuring 'not matter'? What is the point if they don't feature? You listed players who were out on loan last season and ones who were nowhere near the first team. What exactly is your point? Ajax play their youngsters regularly, we don't. They also make large sums from selling their players, we rarely get anything. What an absolutely ridiculous comparison. featuring yes, regularly no. All they need to do to be counted is promoted from youth contract to professional and be in the twenty odd man squad. One appearance as sub is sufficient to be counted. The point as clearly stated is the number of children turned into professional sportsman. That is the bases of the criteria measured to ascertain an academy's success.it is measured this way to remove the cash equation. What you are talking about is quality. Completely different. Quality in academies is judged by the amount of players they produce who feature for top league teams throughout europe They must train at the club from 15-18 and be signed on professional contracts and entered the field of play for their respective team. The team must reside in the top league of the country. Not including the acadamies own club.On last check(2014) we had 14 players meeting this criteria. Not bad for the money we spend. If the English championship was included we would have many more . Each club also have their own goals for their academies that they use to measure success. For example Ajax aim to promote 3 players from youth to first team squad every 2 years. Inter milan aim for 2 players per year to feature in a game for top team Bayern aim to have top quality players within the first team who have to identify themselves fully with the club A comparison with ajax on quality produced would be unfair. Ajax spend €6m a year have 13 coaches and 55 scouts all for the youth academy alone. Edited July 13, 2015 by trublusince1982 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Barristan Selmy 222 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Remind me how many youth players we have profited from in the last 10 years? If one of our youth players doesn't become a first team regular, goes on to be a pro at another club and we get no transfer fee, I fail to see how that can be considered a success. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 2,499 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Remind me how many youth players we have profited from in the last 10 years? If one of our youth players doesn't become a first team regular, goes on to be a pro at another club and we get no transfer fee, I fail to see how that can be considered a success. I think you are both arguing the same point with different criteria. You are looking at success for Rangers and TB is taking the point of view to bring a player through to the professional ranks is a success. You are both correct depending on how you are looking at it. The international way judging performance is how many players are playing prof in Europe so TB is correct on that one. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Barristan Selmy 222 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I think you are both arguing the same point with different criteria. You are looking at success for Rangers and TB is taking the point of view to bring a player through to the professional ranks is a success. You are both correct depending on how you are looking at it. The international way judging performance is how many players are playing prof in Europe so TB is correct on that one. The fact is unless we are making money or bringing through players we can get a decent contribution out of, our youth system is failing. We might produce plenty players that end up at other Scottish teams, that might benefit the Scottish game to a degree, it doesn't benefit us whatsoever. For arguments sake it would be interesting to see all of these players we have brought through that play in top leagues. I can't think of many aside from Adam. Adam is probably one of our biggest success stories and we got a paltry fee for him that didn't even begin to cover his development costs and wages. Clubs like Ajax shouldn't be muttered in the same breath as us. We are operating in a different universe where it's a miracle of we produce a player that we make money out of or regularly play. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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