Excellent Article

[Wija 0]

Sorry for my late entry into the discussion.

 

I can see points from all sides etc etc.

 

The one and only real major factor in the religious divide in Scotland that seperates us from the mould of other European countries is a simple one. We are (The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) the only Protestant country out of them all. It is the minority telling the majority what to do - that rings a bell with Apartheid in S.A. Seperate schooling - Apartheid?

 

There is definately a theme running through it all.

[BC2 0]

i may just be madwaeit, but this conversation seems surreal to me. do you honestly think that all rangers fans hate catholics, and all celtic fans are maganimous towards rangers fans? or at least more celtic supporters tolerate protestants than protestants tolerate catholics?

 

is that honestly what you're arguing? what planet are you on man. i'd venture that the people who actually hate each other know fuck all about their own supposed religion on either side.

 

you dont get rangers fans beating up celtic fans over the perpetual virginity and the implicit idolatary therein, do youu ffs? or celtic fans beating up rangers fans for forsakign apostle passed down tradition to elevate their own reason solely to the application of the bible?

 

the rangers and celtic fans that hate each other's 'religion' do so because they just hate people of a different sort. if there weren't a religious language to wrap it in, they'd still hate each other - hibs fans hate hearts fans and vice versa.

 

99% of people in ibrox or parkhead every other saturday are at best agnostic.

 

I believe that a great many Rangers fans are intolerant of catholics. The number of Celtic fans intolerant of protestants in my opinion is far smaller.

 

I agree with most of the rest of your post, and the use of religion as a wrapper in particular. Celtic and Rangers fans tend (more than other football rivals) to be different in ways other than religion. The biggest difference between a Hibs and a Hearts fan is likely to be the team they support. This is often not the case with Celtic and Rangers fans.

[bmck 117]

I believe that a great many Rangers fans are intolerant of catholics. The number of Celtic fans intolerant of protestants in my opinion is far smaller.

 

i really have to wonder how you came to know this at all. have you went around surveying them? it may just be the unlucky few you've came across are. when i think to every season ticket holder i know, i dont really know any that are actually intolerant of catholics. i know plenty who hate catholicism as a religion (these are actually evenly spread out across rangers and celtic fans, are usually atheists/agnostic), but precious few who hate catholics because they're catholic. but maybe its just because i mostly know people quite like me. maybe you dont see the extremes in your support because you mostly know people quite like you.

 

catholics suffer no persecution in our contemporary social/political context. those guys that done the initial research into it in the 80s to prove that they did have re-researched it and said "yeah, there used to be a bias against catholics in scotland, now there's not".

 

i really think its a figment of your imagination, man. both sides have their extremists, 99% of fans couldn't care one or the other about religion at all.

 

i mean, i could offer a counter example - i've got a mate from the deepest darkest butney (well, when it wasn't all knocked down - though its still a little provo stronghold, takings taken for the ira every week etc) and he went to john paul and promptly announced that "i cant believe you're a fucking proddy man, you're brand new" once we'd spoke for a bit the first time i met him.

 

turns out i was actually the first 'proddy' he'd actually properly spoken to, so, though its a convenient example for me, i have to wonder if the imaginary place he got his mindset is the same place you've got yours.

 

personally i think the whole problems a load of shit anyway. as i said in my article before, i dont have a problem with people singing ******s, huns, orange bastards, fucking popes, queens, williams of orange, calvin or whatever - people's beliefs should be strong enough not to run about greetin' when they get offended.

[Gazza_8 233]

And your point is...................?

 

It may be more like 50-50 after all. At least we, the Rangers fan accept we have a problem and are trying to solve it, you lot are acting like wee stubborn kids - "it's them no us".

[bmck 117]

It may be more like 50-50 after all. At least we, the Rangers fan accept we have a problem and are trying to solve it, you lot are acting like wee stubborn kids - "it's them no us".

 

the fans are acting like that, while their chief exec arranges secret meetings to stop this non-problem occuring. its all very strange.

[CammyF 6,784]

BC II, in recent history (last 15 years) there have been 15 deaths after OF games. These tragic deaths aren't all 'catholics' killed by 'proddies' or vice versa, it is split 8 Rangers fans murdered, 7 Celtc. Now, I ask you if you can remember if any of these tragic deaths have made the press. I know of 3, all Celtc supporters. These figures were supplied by the Police for an OF debate sponsored by Nil By Mouth.

 

Taking this season as a starting point, there has been 1 arrest in Scottish grounds for secterianism - the culprit was a Celtc supporter who was arrested at Aberdeen for singing a sectarian song.

 

As I have stated, this season, your COE has taken it upon himself to invite various supporters groups to Celtc Park to ask their help in drowning out sectarian, political and offensive songs. Yet, he continues to deny that their is a problem when questioned by the media (and they tow the party line). Frankie offered up You Tube footage of Celtc games this season (home and away) where the majority of the crowd are indulging in anti-presbyterian and political songs.

 

Rangers fans have indulged in sectarian singing this season - during the first game of the season at Inverness. This was righty investigated, reported and thankfully, overcome by the vast majority of Rangers fans.

 

Tell my BC, why havent the exmaples of Celtc fans singing sectarian, political and offensive songs not been investigated, reported and overcome by the fans? I'll tell you why, you, your club and media don't see them as 'sectarian'.

 

I'll bet any money the firsts sectarian song sung on Saturday will eminate from the Celtc end. Hell, I'll even go as far as to predict the song that you'll sing - during the pre-match melody, the theme from the great escape is played - as usual we'll hear the lovely ditty from the Celtc fans 'Henrick Larsson, Mark Viduka, Fuck The Queen and Davie Cooper (he's deid)'.

 

As for Catholic Rangers supporters - Your right, the don't exist, why would they, if they did, they would blow your theory out of the water. Surfice to say that Govan Parish Priest (I would assume that he is a Catholic) is a season ticket holder at Ibrox. I also assume that the local Dubs who are members of the Dublin RSC are catholics (along with their polish members). Ask the Dublin RSC about tollerance, respect and sectarianism. I sat beside 4 Catholic supporters when I had a season ticket in the Main Stand. All 4 from Manchester and United fans who could no longer afford Old Trafford. They decided to travel up to Scotland and actually went to Torbett Towers initally but didn't feel 'welcome' there. They decided to come to Ibrox instead and were there 4 years later.

 

But hey, you and Spiers are right, it ain't a 50-50 problem any more.

 

 

Cammy F

[calscot 0]

The debate over who is worse is made very difficult by the fact that there are not equal amounts of Catholics and Protestants in Scotland. It skews all calculations and that is amusingly pointed out in the comments after the story.

 

Catholics always think they are better as they don't see anything they do as bigoted as they are the minority. It's like many people who don't believe that you can be racist towards a white majority; and even where there are equal numbers there can be discrepancies in interpretation and recognition - for example discrimination against men is rarely treated seriously.

 

However, due to this, I honestly think the Catholic Celtic side is far worse. Many Rangers fans will sing the songs etc but that's about it while most Celtic fans I've met or debated with on the net are at least rabidly sectarian against the Orange Order. However, the strange thing is they argue that "that's different".

 

The guy who is pretty much my best mate at the moment is a Catholic Aetheist [sic] Celtic fan.

 

He is an easy going an intelligent guy, until it comes to the religious divide, when he changes and spouts rhetoric without reasoned argument and refuses to listen to any counter arguments.

 

I watch Celtic with him in the European games and vice versa, and while I don't even listen to the songs, he complains about Rule Britannia, the Sash, Derry's walls and the flying of the Union Flag.

 

When challenged about this and suggested that they are not bigoted and that being against them can be construed as bigoted, he says that's rubbish and then, "doesn't want to talk about it."

 

He even told me that he would be offended if I brought a Union Flag to his house despite him being a Scotsman living in England. (Not that I would but it's a bit extreme, to say the least and offended my English girlfriend).

 

He, like many Celtic fans, compares the OO to the KKK, despite the Catholic church having the worst history by far of the three, by torturing and killing anyone that disagreed with them and being guilty of genocide. And when you mention any of the heinous crimes of the Catholic church as evidence you get called anti-Catholic! Or sometimes accused of, "revisionism."

 

Another thing my mate doesn't want to discuss is that their is obvious evidence that Celtic MUST have had a sectarian signing policy as they had about 80% Catholics from a population which contained about 18%. That's not equal opportunities in anyone's book. Rangers were short about 2 Catholics in their teams, Celtic were short about 6 Protestants.

 

Not many Catholics or Celtic fans will acknowledge that one, yet they bang on, inaccurately about alleged Rangers signing policies despite their being no evidence of it in the last 30 years. It's akin to lambasting the present SA government and people for apartheid. That behaviour is a type of bigotry in itself.

 

I argue with Rangers fans all the time against much of the singing and chants but what real sectarianism there is only boils down to a few things - F.T.P., No Pope of Rome and the more contentious use of the Fen1an word which is probably in effect more political.

 

Apart from that, the only real argument I have against the rest is that it is irrelevant to football and that with two sides doing it, it stirs up hatred.

 

However, the main reason that it seems to rumble on, in my mind is that Catholics choose their football team due to their religion which reseeds the whole circular problem. All other religions tend to have free choice of the 41 other teams.

 

If Rangers had nothing to do with Protestantism there would still be about 75% "Protestants" in the crowd. The fact that there is more is not because they reject Catholics (how could they?), it is the fact that there are very few non-Celtic supporting Catholics left; and most of them will refuse to support Rangers.

 

Catholics and Celtic fans then perpetually attack Rangers and their fans and so it's no wonder that many of them adopt an opposite stance. The extreme ones then adopt all the opposite rubbish and hatred in return. You get the two tribes thing going and all that goes with it.

 

The question that comes back is that without a Catholic team, what would happen to the Rangers bigots? They would hate the fans of the biggest rival team and find a different excuse for it. If Rangers and an Edinburgh team were the biggest two then their would be trouble between people from Glasgow and Edinburgh.

 

However, it would probably have less hatred as the nearby sectarian killings in NI have really het up the whole situation for the OF into something far worse than it would have been.

 

The reason there is far more trouble with religion in Scottish football is that it is the one place where it seems almost all of a religious minority support the one team and there is a neighbouring, related country with a history of pretty much a sectarian civil war.

 

I really all boils down to "us" and "them" and it can happen anywhere, just look at Yugoslavia with its war which event went as far as ethnic cleansing.

 

You cannot change what you don't acknowledge and there is definitely one side that is far better at acknowledging than the other.

[bmck 117]

^ well worth reading all the way through.

[andrew_2010 0]

^ well worth reading all the way through.

 

I'll second that!

[calscot 0]

PS Although I mentioned the Catholic churches past crimes, I don't hold that against any Catholics and don't hate people because they are Catholic, just like I don't hate all Muslims for the recent terrible terrorism acts in Islam's name.

 

I don't "love catholics" either, as firstly there is only one person I could say I actually love and she is CofE and not really that any more. Secondly, I don't love, hate or like any people because of their religion. I treat them as individuals regardless of race, religion, country of origin etc or even team they support. I could quite easily dislike a large proportion of Rangers fans if I met them just as I could with any other fans.

 

There are arseholes everywhere... - in my opinion of course.