The Borna Barisic conundrum

[the gunslinger 3,366]

beats men all the time to get crosses in. 

 

Do we really want our full backs trying to skin men on the half way line when no one is behind them. 

 

Definitely not and it doesn't happen elsewhere or previously. 

 

been our best player this season so far. certainly top 3. 

[JohnMc 2,473]

14 hours ago, Sutton_blows_goats said:

This is true. It was also true of Bassey after his first season. In all honesty he looked very bad. But he got a chance, took it and the rest is history.

 

Im not suggesting it’s guaranteed Ridvan will do the same. Given the fact he can’t stay fit it’s highly unlikely. But we have had Barisics best years and it’s probably time for both parties to move on at the end of the season.

 

I suppose it’s easier to write off a guy approaching the end of his career than it is a guy just starting it out. 

I'm not sure that is true. Bassey looked competent when he first made the team, I'm not sure any of us thought he'd go stellar on first viewing, but he looked a more than able back up. Bassey was 20 when he broke into our first team with no previous first team experience, Ridvan is 22 now with over 70 first team appearances and 6 international caps. Whatever ability he must have been showing a few seasons ago he's lost it in Glasgow. 

 

I'm not writing him off, I'm just arguing that currently Borna is the best left back at the club, Ridvan has demonstrated nothing in his appearances to suggest he should get the jersey ahead of Barasic. Best case scenario for me is we find a Turkish or Saudi team willing to take Ridvan and pay us what we spent on him and we find another young left back to challenge Borna. 

[JohnMc 2,473]

14 hours ago, yuddie said:

Honestly, take Ridvans Rangers career and super impose 4 or 5 assisted crosses and no one would be complaining.

You're right, if Ridvan had only done those things during his Rangers career we'd all love him. But he hasn't, so, you know. 

[JohnMc 2,473]

10 hours ago, weebluedevil said:

It was John. And I don't necessarily disagree, but what we're essentially saying is that we can't afford players that can perform everything we need of them. Therefore, why are we slating them all the time? Would we also accept that Danilo or Dessers or Lammers will miss sitters in big games (Sakala likewise), because if they had the consistency to perform under pressure, when needed, they wouldn't be playing for us?  I'm not so sure.

 

C'mon, slating players is what we do, what would we talk about otherwise, we're Rangers fans after all? 

 

There's a harsh reality I think most of us have adjusted too in recent years. That reality is we're now probably a third tier club. That's nothing to do with support, facilities, history or potential, but everything to do with money. Our spell in the Champion's League last season was a reminder of just how far behind the elite clubs we are. Even if we didn't do ourselves justice last season, the reality is our very best players struggle to get into also ran sides in the big leagues. Bassey didn't seem to have the season we all thought he would in Holland, a stronger league than Scotland's but not a top one. Let's see how he gets on at an yoyo club like Fulham. Aribo and Paterson both struggle to make the first team of relatively poor English top flight sides. 

 

We can buy players who should be the among the best in the league in their position. But they'll not be top players. There might be exceptions to that, Butland might prove to be one for example, Raskin might push on and have a very good career too, but for us we're either looking for players with potential to improve or journeyman who can do a good job at our level for a few seasons. Danilo, Lammers and Dessers fall into the latter category. Raskin, Cifuentes and Sterling into the former. I think most of us agree Raskin looks like a cracking player and had a good game the other night. But he also needlessly gave away the ball trying to make a very ambitious pass that then almost led to a Servette goal, earning him a bollocking form Tav and Goldson. 

 

The days of Gascoigne, Laudrup or De Boer playing for Rangers are long gone, maybe never to return. Doesn't mean we can't enjoy it. Plus, I slated De Boer on more than one occasion!

[weebluedevil 1,172]

22 minutes ago, JohnMc said:

C'mon, slating players is what we do, what would we talk about otherwise, we're Rangers fans after all? 

 

There's a harsh reality I think most of us have adjusted too in recent years. That reality is we're now probably a third tier club. That's nothing to do with support, facilities, history or potential, but everything to do with money. Our spell in the Champion's League last season was a reminder of just how far behind the elite clubs we are. Even if we didn't do ourselves justice last season, the reality is our very best players struggle to get into also ran sides in the big leagues. Bassey didn't seem to have the season we all thought he would in Holland, a stronger league than Scotland's but not a top one. Let's see how he gets on at an yoyo club like Fulham. Aribo and Paterson both struggle to make the first team of relatively poor English top flight sides. 

 

We can buy players who should be the among the best in the league in their position. But they'll not be top players. There might be exceptions to that, Butland might prove to be one for example, Raskin might push on and have a very good career too, but for us we're either looking for players with potential to improve or journeyman who can do a good job at our level for a few seasons. Danilo, Lammers and Dessers fall into the latter category. Raskin, Cifuentes and Sterling into the former. I think most of us agree Raskin looks like a cracking player and had a good game the other night. But he also needlessly gave away the ball trying to make a very ambitious pass that then almost led to a Servette goal, earning him a bollocking form Tav and Goldson. 

 

The days of Gascoigne, Laudrup or De Boer playing for Rangers are long gone, maybe never to return. Doesn't mean we can't enjoy it. Plus, I slated De Boer on more than one occasion!

I don't disagree, but I want to play devil's advocate for a moment. Does a third tier club get to a European Elite 2nd tier competition final? Maybe it was just an unexplainable blip, or an overachievement by a team with an exceptional manager and tactical display, who we then sack when the team drops back to a more realistic level. We, fans, can moan and groan all we like, as you say it's part of being a Rangers' fan and the heavy expectations that come with that, but the decision makers can't be jumping from the frying pan to the fire every time the fans get restless because our performances are only equal to the investment and ambition of the people that run the club. 

[Sutton_blows_goats 4,205]

1 hour ago, JohnMc said:

The days of Gascoigne, Laudrup or De Boer playing for Rangers are long gone, maybe never to return. Doesn't mean we can't enjoy it. Plus, I slated De Boer on more than one occasion!

The irony is we are showing up better in Europe now than we did when we had these guys.

 

We got to a European final with a team that cost about 14 million. Roofe and Kent made up most of that. That would have bought a couple of players under Advocaat. 

 

Funny old game.

[craig 5,195]

17 hours ago, yuddie said:

Aahh I can't agree sorry, purely because of the amount of shockers that Borna's had. There's been so many. Ridvans played 15 times and if he's had a howler in each of them he'd still be catching up to Borna.

 

And that's it, people are pointing out mistakes in a friendly. Don't get it. Dani Pacheco would've won a Balon D'or at Liverpool if his form stayed true to his pre-season outings.

 

Ridvan's 3 Assists in 15, which isn't actually that bad for someone who's a bit part essentially.

 

 

Are you suggesting that Borna has a howler every game he plays ?  Or just that at 15 Ridvan would be catching up - given Borna has played 125 times for us I would expect him to have mistakes at least 15 times - is only 12%.  In this pre-season alone Ridvan was at least partly at fault for 3 goals in 2 games... extrapolated that would be 187 mistakes over the same games as Borna.

 

Point being, trying to extrapolate these stats is night on pointless.

 

The point you make about pre-season makes little sense to me - you talk about Dani Pacheco playing well in pre-season when the pressure is off... whilst I am talking about Ridvan's part in 3 lost goals in pre-season - polar opposites when talking about one's good form vs another's bad form.  Could Ridvan eliminate those mistakes in competitive games because he doesnt take as many risks in those games ?  Sure.  But if you were a manager, and you witnessed a defender gifting a couple of goals in pre-season games would you really trust him in competitive games ?

 

2 of Ridvan's assists came against St Mirren and the other against Queen of the South.... are we just going to ignore the standard of opposition that both are getting assists against ?

[craig 5,195]

17 hours ago, yuddie said:

Neither of them are top class by the way, but there's something to work with in Ridvan vs an ageing one trick Pony in Borna. That's when the manager has to stick or twist.

An AWFUL lot of work needed for a guy we allegedly paid 4-5 million for.

[craig 5,195]

15 hours ago, Franc Ergs said:

There needs to be competition at left back ,not sure Ridvan offers too much.

 

Yfeko should be getting some game time there, he did quite well in pre season .

He isnt a left back though, is he ?  What about Devine, who played there a few times last season ? (fully aware that isnt his position either).  Wait... why am I even saying this - Borna has been one of our best players in the last 18 months - so long as he stays in this window, he should be our 1st choice LB, until he proves otherwise

[yuddie 1,012]

10 minutes ago, craig said:

Are you suggesting that Borna has a howler every game he plays ?  Or just that at 15 Ridvan would be catching up - given Borna has played 125 times for us I would expect him to have mistakes at least 15 times - is only 12%.  In this pre-season alone Ridvan was at least partly at fault for 3 goals in 2 games... extrapolated that would be 187 mistakes over the same games as Borna.

 

Point being, trying to extrapolate these stats is night on pointless.

 

The point you make about pre-season makes little sense to me - you talk about Dani Pacheco playing well in pre-season when the pressure is off... whilst I am talking about Ridvan's part in 3 lost goals in pre-season - polar opposites when talking about one's good form vs another's bad form.  Could Ridvan eliminate those mistakes in competitive games because he doesnt take as many risks in those games ?  Sure.  But if you were a manager, and you witnessed a defender gifting a couple of goals in pre-season games would you really trust him in competitive games ?

 

2 of Ridvan's assists came against St Mirren and the other against Queen of the South.... are we just going to ignore the standard of opposition that both are getting assists against ?

Nah I meant the total amount since Borna's been here.

 

I'm not talking about individual mistakes no, I'm talking about being woeful from minute one to minute 90 (or until he feels his hamstring getting tight, as is the way). I wouldn't say someone making a single mistake in a game is having a howler. Borna will have 4 or 5 games a season where he's dog shit for the full game and he's not the type to have a howling 45 and turn it around in the second, when he's shite he's f***ing shite.

 

Also on the post about Ridvan needing an 'AWFUL' lot of work, the boy had barely turned 21 when we signed him. I don't know many full backs who peak that young and don't need coaching? Micah Richards maybe? The vast majority of defenders get better with age and game time.

Edited August 17, 2023 by yuddie