Mark Bresciano

[Wija 0]

Midfielders are what we need, but I know nothing of this guy.

 

It is at last a move back in the right direction, but the sale of Cuellar and the loan deal of the Spaniard has us firmly stamped as a selling club.

 

We are certainly not the club we used to be.

[fraser54 0]

David Murray actually made a brilliant point in his interview saying we are not a selling club and said the facts/ figures of transfers in/out.

 

We are not a selling club

[Frankie 8,182]

We may not be a selling club per se but we certainly now seem to have a habit of selling our best players at the wrong times while failing to replace them with similar quality.

[craig 5,199]

Fraser - SDM has used the facts and figures to support what he wanted to support. His definition of not being a selling club likely isnt the same as mine. Just because we have a net outflow of cash doesnt mean we arent a selling club. If you continually sell your best players for the cash that, IMO, makes us a selling club.

 

Frankie, I agree that we havent replaced some of the sales with similar quality but when you look at getting replacements in you are never assured of their quality anyway. To use an example.... Whittaker was bought to challenge Hutton for the RB spot (so in essence could be deemed his replacement) yet Hutton came on leaps and bounds (beyond anyone's expectations) whilst Whittaker seems to have stagnated. At the point of signature Whittaker, whilst not as good as Hutton, was deemed to be decent enough. It isnt an easy task to know you get similar quality - and the transfer fee isnt indicative either. Management also have to take some of that responsibility with some of the signings they have made.

[calscot 0]

Fraser - SDM has used the facts and figures to support what he wanted to support. His definition of not being a selling club likely isnt the same as mine. Just because we have a net outflow of cash doesnt mean we arent a selling club. If you continually sell your best players for the cash that, IMO, makes us a selling club.

 

So does that make Arsenal a selling club? If Man U sell Ronaldo are they a selling club?

 

Don't agree with you at all. According to your definition, we've sold two players - and one went against our will by triggering a clause in his contract. For the other, we received a "silly money" offer and ALL clubs attest that ALL players are for sale at the right price. People forget Hutton was considered "shite" the year before, 6 months later and he was "worth" 4M, 6 months later and we get offered 9M.

 

I wouldn't consider myself a selling person when it comes to houses, but if someone offered me 10 times what I paid for my house, then they would have a deal.

 

In any case I still can't see a trend for selling our best players, when we have had few players we could call our "best". We're keeping our best goalkeeper for years and our captain is still here as well as our top scorer. Thomson is one of the very few bright lights we have and he's still here. Our most promising young player for generations is also still here.

 

Just what "best" players do we have left to sell? Where is the trend of selling our "best" players?

 

Could we really have stopped the sale of VBronck and Reyna? Did we force them out the door or did they choose to leave? Did we really profiteer on Albertz and how come we turned down 5M for Laudrup?

 

Other best players like Prso retired. Was Boumsong that good or was it a great bit of business that helped us win the league. Arteta was sold at a huge lost and Clement wanted to follow his mentor.

 

Bazza did leave but it seemed he chose to as Rangers were a sinking ship and he wanted to try the Premiership.

 

I challenge this perception because as I wrack my brains, I just can't see enough examples to support it.

 

The amount of players we've sold for a big profit is pretty low and only one didn't want to leave "yet". The rest pretty much engineered their own sale.

 

As far as I can see Rangers have absolutely no trend for hawking our best players for profit.

[Wija 0]

So does that make Arsenal a selling club? If Man U sell Ronaldo are they a selling club?

 

Don't agree with you at all. According to your definition, we've sold two players - and one went against our will by triggering a clause in his contract. For the other, we received a "silly money" offer and ALL clubs attest that ALL players are for sale at the right price. People forget Hutton was considered "shite" the year before, 6 months later and he was "worth" 4M, 6 months later and we get offered 9M.

 

I wouldn't consider myself a selling person when it comes to houses, but if someone offered me 10 times what I paid for my house, then they would have a deal.

 

In any case I still can't see a trend for selling our best players, when we have had few players we could call our "best". We're keeping our best goalkeeper for years and our captain is still here as well as our top scorer. Thomson is one of the very few bright lights we have and he's still here. Our most promising young player for generations is also still here.

 

Just what "best" players do we have left to sell? Where is the trend of selling our "best" players?

 

Could we really have stopped the sale of VBronck and Reyna? Did we force them out the door or did they choose to leave? Did we really profiteer on Albertz and how come we turned down 5M for Laudrup?

 

Other best players like Prso retired. Was Boumsong that good or was it a great bit of business that helped us win the league. Arteta was sold at a huge lost and Clement wanted to follow his mentor.

 

Bazza did leave but it seemed he chose to as Rangers were a sinking ship and he wanted to try the Premiership.

 

I challenge this perception because as I wrack my brains, I just can't see enough examples to support it.

 

The amount of players we've sold for a big profit is pretty low and only one didn't want to leave "yet". The rest pretty much engineered their own sale.

 

As far as I can see Rangers have absolutely no trend for hawking our best players for profit.

 

So selling Boumsong, Hutton and allowing Cuellar to go isn't selling our best players for profit in the short term?

 

If Hutton had not gone, we would have won the Championship.. The UEFA cup run, and other trophies well you can make your own mind up.... but we are selling our best players and bringing in dross to make up for it... I mean, Broadfoot, Webster (who maybe Motherwell bound) Weir are no where near as good as Cuellar (Weir may have been 8/10 years ago).

[calscot 0]

Cuellar CHOSE to leave with a clause in his contract. You are not a selling club when you are forced to sell.

 

Boumsong was found out a Newcastle and there was no way he was worth 8M. Every players has his price at every club and when you're offered silly money you take it. That money actually went towards IMPROVING the team.

 

Hutton also falls into that category except this time we didn't reinvest the money properly or timely enough.

 

So your examples are poor especially as I already explained my thoughts on them beforehand. I would love to see you actually give a rational and compelling explanation for your rhetoric that considers and counters my arguments.

 

I can't see how you can "know" that ONE player would guarantee us the SPL. That's just speculation at best and fantasy at worst. Knowing Hutton there is a good chance he would have been suspended or injured during the run-in in any case.

 

As for your second paragraph, Weir, Broadfoot and Webster, were NOT brought into replace Cuellar, if anything they arrived BEFORE the Spaniard.

 

You just don't seem to get it that we were FORCED to sell Cuellar against our will and the money is NOW being used to buy Mendes and Bresciano - and maybe more.

 

If you want to talk about replacing Carlos then by default I suppose right now it's Brougherra.

[craig 5,199]

Your definition differs from mine and that is fine.

 

But YES we could have prevented the sale ov GvB and Reyna - they were on contracts and the club did not need to sell them.

 

Arsenal sell because they WANT to sell from a footballing perspective, not because they have to (you can decide that we dont have to and that is your prerogative - I happen to believe SDM is selling because he has to, not because he wants to from a footballing perspective).

 

In much the same manner that you castigated others for dealing in speculation over the sale of Cuellar you are doing the same in the instance of Man U and Ronaldo - the simple fact is that they have NOT sold him and have said he will NOT be getting sold, so that example is worthless.

 

I would say our best players in recent years have been Barry Ferguson (sold to Blackburn), Alan Hutton (sold to Spurs) and Carlos Cuellar (sold to Villa) - who else has there been ?? Prso, Arveladze ?? Retired and let go. Maybe McGregor and Boyd. Neither sold but we dont know if that is because we dont want them to leave or because we have had no offers. You mention Boumsong yourself and he is a very good example IMO. Tranferred on a Bosman and gone 6 months later - is this not an example of a selling club especially when we were bereft of quality ? Arteta wasnt sold at a huge loss at all IIRC - he was bought at 5 mill and sold for 6 or something (not 100% on this though).

 

You use Laudrup as an example yet that was in our "spending spree" days when money seemed no object so I am not surprised that the money was turned down - it was also a number of years ago that it happened and, as you will readily admit, times have certainly changed for our club since then. Just because we werent a selling club 7 years ago doesnt mean we arent now.

 

You cant say we are keeping our best GK for years either or has the Cuellar debacle not cleared your mind on that ? You reckoned he would be here for a year at least as you chose to believe what you read. He left. Now you are choosing to believe that McGregor will be here for years because he has signed a 5yr deal - don't count on it (although I will be very happy for it to be the case). Our Captain is now here because he wants to be here and with the way he left Blackburn and the statements he made I doubt another club would bother trying to sign him as he obviously doesnt want to be anywhere else.

 

IMO WS can't sell Thomson because we would have no midfield left. The offer from WBA was mooted at 4 mill - would it be worth taking 2 mill profit anyway ? Being a selling club doesnt mean you have to accept any offer over what you paid for a player.

 

Have we had any large offers for Fleck ? How does he even factor into this debate ? I havent heard that we have had any significant offers for him so if you use him to justify us as a non-selling club then I am all ears.

 

As for Rangers not hawking our best players look no further than Hutton - if you believe that Rangers did not hawk him then good for you but Walter's own comments told you the club wanted the cash. For the record, I disagree with you that we were offered silly money for Hutton - he was worth more than 9 mill IMO in the current market place but that is another debate. On a tangent but again, IMO, selling Hutton cost us far more than the 9 mill we got for him because IMO we would have won the league with him and a guaranteed CL spot.

 

I wont go further into debate on it as it is obvious that you and I disagree on the definition of a selling club.

[craig 5,199]

Cuellar CHOSE to leave with a clause in his contract. You are not a selling club when you are forced to sell.

 

Boumsong was found out a Newcastle and there was no way he was worth 8M. Every players has his price at every club and when you're offered silly money you take it. That money actually went towards IMPROVING the team.

 

Hutton also falls into that category except this time we didn't reinvest the money properly or timely enough.

 

So your examples are poor especially as I already explained my thoughts on them beforehand. I would love to see you actually give a rational and compelling explanation for your rhetoric that considers and counters my arguments.

 

I can't see how you can "know" that ONE player would guarantee us the SPL. That's just speculation at best and fantasy at worst. Knowing Hutton there is a good chance he would have been suspended or injured during the run-in in any case.

 

As for your second paragraph, Weir, Broadfoot and Webster, were NOT brought into replace Cuellar, if anything they arrived BEFORE the Spaniard.

 

You just don't seem to get it that we were FORCED to sell Cuellar against our will and the money is NOW being used to buy Mendes and Bresciano - and maybe more.

 

If you want to talk about replacing Carlos then by default I suppose right now it's Brougherra.

 

Cuellar, you are right.

 

Boumsong IMO you are wrong. Just because he got found out at Newcastle doesnt me he wasnt worth 8 mill when sold. Everyone was raving about him when he was at Gers. Regardless, selling him 6 months after he signed and when he was our best CB is tantamount to a selling club - again, IMO.

 

You choose to believe that Hutton wasnt the difference between winning the league or not is fine. I believe otherwise. Hutton could have been injured and it is speculation - but one thing there is no doubt of and that is that we were a much inferior team after he left.

 

You are right that those brought in before Cuellar cant be deemed his replacements.

 

But if you are using Bougherra as the proper replacement then something doesnt add up in the Cuellar forced sale does it ? If Bougherra was his replacement then the timeline of his decision to leave is wrong..... Bougherra cant be his replacement if he was bought before Cuellar was sold - unless management knew that Cuellar was going ahead of time......

[calscot 0]

Cuellar, you are right.

 

Boumsong IMO you are wrong. Just because he got found out at Newcastle doesnt me he wasnt worth 8 mill when sold. Everyone was raving about him when he was at Gers. Regardless, selling him 6 months after he signed and when he was our best CB is tantamount to a selling club - again, IMO.

 

Boumsong was definitely sold for "silly money", he looked good yes, but how that equated from free to 8M in half a season in the SPL is baffling. I'm not surprised we grabbed the money, look at how we almost got 3M for Cousin and now can't give him away.

 

Not only that the money was reinvested in the team and we were a much better team for it. That means it was also done for footballing reasons.

 

 

You choose to believe that Hutton wasnt the difference between winning the league or not is fine. I believe otherwise. Hutton could have been injured and it is speculation - but one thing there is no doubt of and that is that we were a much inferior team after he left.

 

If it was two or three players, maybe, but not just one who was prone to glaring errors and hotheadedness. Hutton is good but he doesn't make a team. You're right, we were a worse team when we left but that is the risk you take when you are also dealing with huge financial implications for the club.

 

You are right that those brought in before Cuellar cant be deemed his replacements.

 

But if you are using Bougherra as the proper replacement then something doesnt add up in the Cuellar forced sale does it ? If Bougherra was his replacement then the timeline of his decision to leave is wrong..... Bougherra cant be his replacement if he was bought before Cuellar was sold - unless management knew that Cuellar was going ahead of time......

 

You are twisting my words or not reading them properly, I said Brougherra is the closest to a replacement "by default". He came as a partner not a replacement, but when Cuellar left, he was "effectively" his replacement. I don't contradict myself so easily.

 

Nothing whatsoever to do with knowing beforehand and I think beyond getting into conspiracy theories, all the evidence points towards Cuellar's departure being a surprise and against the management and chairman's wishes.

 

It's obvious Murray is too smart and egotistical to lie one day when he knows he'll be found out the next. His all guns blazing interview afterwards completely confirms this as well as our instant spending spree.