Walter's raid on Reds

[craig 5,199]

It's HIS squad, you can only play 11 players at a time, simples.

 

Unless they are brought in as a first choice, players usually get their best chances when first choices are either dropped for not performing, injured or leave - and sometimes when the tactics change.

 

Other way of getting a chance is coming on as a sub when the team is winning comfortably or in a cup tie against a minnow.

 

Normal management is to decide your strongest team and only to make changes when it is performing badly or you need to. There is squad rotation too, but that is highly criticised.

 

So, are you saying no manager can get credit for playing a player unless he chooses him for a random reason or drops a player from a winning team? How can a manager get no credit for playing a player he himself bought?

 

Walter doesn't have a big squad by ACCIDENT, he CHOOSES his squad to ACCOUNT for form, tactics and injury. The players are his choice and it is he that chooses the team.

 

When a player players for Rangers at the moment it is fully down to Walter and he should get full credit, just like almost any other manager of any other team - except maybe at Hearts.

 

There are actually loads of other complications - Edu, Lafferty, Fleck et al have had multiple chances but did not always show they were worthy of a place.

 

Do you really think Walter should have played Edu before Barry Ferguson and Stephen Thomson?

 

It really does seem on here that if something goes badly it's Walter's fault, if something goes well, it's due to someone or something else.

 

So 3.5 million on Lafferty as a squad player ?

2 million on Whittaker as a squad player ?

 

We dont have that type of money to spend on players who are only going to be squad players.

 

I disagree that Edu got "multiple chances" - when ? He played in about 2 games if that - is that enough to determine if a player should be given a chance or not (Amdy Faye excepted.....). I would play Edu before Stephen Thomson but not Kevin Thomson

 

I am not suggesting ANYTHING is Walter's fault - but you started throwing names out there as if they were ALL to Walter's credit. All I did was critique that and suggest that rather than giving WS carte blanche praise there could be other extenuating reasons why some of those players you mentioned got their chance.

 

Similarly I dont think that the lack of youth in the team is WS's fault either - we as fans are very fickle. We scream out for young players in the team and when they get there we laud them - 3 games later we are talking about how crap they are and they should never be in the team.

 

WS has a job to do and that is win football games - he does it with the players he thinks capable - what we do know is he doesnt go out trying to lose games. His teams are often different to what any of us would choose but that is the beauty fof opinions and debating them.

[CammyF 6,892]

As Craig says, the furstrating thing, given the current financial climate is that most of the players WS has signed, have been signed as squad players, and not to automatically improve the starting 11.

 

Steven Davis is a prime example - we were well covered for centre-midfield, so WS signs the lad, plays him right midfield to the lads and our teams deprement. Why didn't WS use the money for Davis on an actual right sided midfield player.

 

Wide left is even more confusing - he signed Beasley and Aaron to cover that position, yet continually players other players out of position - Fleck, McCulloch, Lafferty, Smith etc.

 

Then, WS signs Miller and Velicka (combined fees circa �£3.5M) when we had 'decent' options upfront - JCD, Boyd, Cousin, Novo. He then sells Cousin and JCD. Velicka is left to rot in the reserves then shoved back into the team at the business end of the season - so fair play to the big man for his contribution under hardly ideal circumstances.

 

We are still short of a right back, left back and wide right player despite WS spending over �£20M in the summer. Add to that, at any given time, we are playing 40-50% of our outfield players out of position.

 

Cammy F

[Super_Ally 0]

Still don't agree McCulloch at LM is out of position. Was left mid for Wigan and Scotland (ok under Smith) when we bought him. Minor issue though, agree with the rest.

[calscot 0]

As Craig says, the furstrating thing, given the current financial climate is that most of the players WS has signed, have been signed as squad players, and not to automatically improve the starting 11.

 

I think that is the first valid bit of criticism on this thread. Lafferty WAS signed as a squad player as he is so young and also considered, "one for the future". Same with Edu.

 

Steven Davis is a prime example - we were well covered for centre-midfield, so WS signs the lad, plays him right midfield to the lads and our teams deprement. Why didn't WS use the money for Davis on an actual right sided midfield player.

 

However, I don't subscribe to the "one position per player" opinion. He played well there on loan to us so it's natural he was signed for that position.

 

Wide left is even more confusing - he signed Beasley and Aaron to cover that position, yet continually players other players out of position - Fleck, McCulloch, Lafferty, Smith etc.

 

Beasley IS for that position, however, the American has been poor since his injury - we know and so does Walter.

 

Aaron and Fleck are special cases as they are teenagers. It's not normal or even "traditional" if you will for Rangers to rely heavily on teenagers. I think people forget how young Fleck is, and that he was the youngest player to play in a Scottish cup final, EVER.

 

This is too important a season to test out inexperienced players willy nilly and Walter knows it.

 

Walter has explained why he played Fleck on the left - and the youngster CAN play there. He feels, the striking role is too important and so too much pressure to introduce a teenager into the team. The other reason is that there was a gap to be filled on the left and so should we deliberately NOT blood a young player who can play there as it's not his first position and play an experienced player out of position instead? Are you saying Fleck should not have played at all this season? After all, we have been well covered up front.

 

Then, WS signs Miller and Velicka (combined fees circa �£3.5M) when we had 'decent' options upfront - JCD, Boyd, Cousin, Novo. He then sells Cousin and JCD. Velicka is left to rot in the reserves then shoved back into the team at the business end of the season - so fair play to the big man for his contribution under hardly ideal circumstances.

 

I think Cousin was always going to leave - his choice, we needed a replacement. JCD just wasn't cutting it anymore, didn't have the right attitude and was on too high a wage for a passanger.

 

Seems to me Velicka didn't "rot" in the reserves as he's looks fine at the moment. Could it just be he wasn't showing the correct attitude, fitness and form to play for the team and so was put in the reserves to get him up to speed? Isn't that correct management?

 

The main reason he's getting a game now is due to Lafferty's injury, the questionable fitness of Miller and Novo's dip in form. He's a squad player and that's exactly the scenario when they come into the team.

 

To me it seems you're deriding Walter a lot of the time for pretty much doing a proper management job.

 

I think many forget that only 11 players are allowed on the pitch at one time which leaves the rest of the squad "rotting" somewhere.

 

I think some people think that football management is easy (perhaps it's the FM generation), yet nobody here is making a great deal of money out of it. So many seem to think they can personally do better.

 

I never judge a manager against myself, I judge him against his peers. In that sense, PLG was Gash, Eck didn't quite have it and funnily enough Walter is doing ok. He has the equal of Celtic and is streets ahead of the rest.

 

You may disagree with how he does things (although it's presumptuous to think you know about everything behind the scenes), but whatever he''s doing, it's working reasonably well. A fact that many find hard to swallow.

[Norris Cole 0]

Seems to me Velicka didn't "rot" in the reserves as he's looks fine at the moment. Could it just be he wasn't showing the correct attitude, fitness and form to play for the team and so was put in the reserves to get him up to speed? Isn't that correct management?

 

I heard a rumour last week that the reason for Velicka's long absence was, in fact, depression. Anyone else heard this?

[CammyF 6,892]

However, I don't subscribe to the "one position per player" opinion. He played well there on loan to us so it's natural he was signed for that position.

 

Neither do I - however, when you have anything between 40-50% of your outfield players playing out of position, then that indicates an issue. Steve Davis has been under-performing in that position all season and WS's refusal to move him into his favoured centre position has been to the deprement of both the player and the team.

 

Beasley IS for that position, however, the American has been poor since his injury - we know and so does Walter.

 

But he hasn't been given a sustained run of games - See above- Davis has been dreadful but is a 'first pick'. If Beasley had been given as many games as Davis and hadn't improved, then you may have a point. WS's refusal to deploy Aaron instead of Davis is also baffling. If Aaron was brought as back-up to Beasley, why was he brought over?

 

Aaron and Fleck are special cases as they are teenagers. It's not normal or even "traditional" if you will for Rangers to rely heavily on teenagers. I think people forget how young Fleck is, and that he was the youngest player to play in a Scottish cup final, EVER.

 

Isn't it? Derek Johnstone, Derek Parlane, Derek Ferguson, Ian Durrant, Hugh Burns, Davie McPherson to name just a few. Fleck is a 'special case' and shouldn't be rushed, I said so at the stgart of the season. However, to be fair ro Fleck, if he is going to be playing, he deserves to play in his favoured position.

 

This is too important a season to test out inexperienced players willy nilly and Walter knows it.

 

Does he? Fleck at left wing, Stevie Smith at left wing.... 40-50% of outfield players playing out of position..... Personally, I'd have thought that the team would perform better with players playing in the positions that they excell at / in......

 

I think some people think that football management is easy (perhaps it's the FM generation), yet nobody here is making a great deal of money out of it. So many seem to think they can personally do better.

 

Never said it was easy, just feel that WS makes it harder for himself.

 

I never judge a manager against myself, I judge him against his peers. In that sense, PLG was Gash, Eck didn't quite have it and funnily enough Walter is doing ok. He has the equal of Celtic and is streets ahead of the rest.

 

If Eck didn't quite have it, what does that say about WS's 2nd spell in charge? Eck won 2 SPL titles, 5 domestic cup trophies, including a treble and got to the last 16 of the CL on a budget that was peanuts compared to what WS has had in his 2nd spell. Eck faced a better Celtc team - in fact, it was the 2nd most successful Celtc team in HISTORY.... Eck matched them trophy for trophy over his stewardship.

 

You may disagree with how he does things (although it's presumptuous to think you know about everything behind the scenes), but whatever he''s doing, it's working reasonably well. A fact that many find hard to swallow.

 

Reasonably well isn't good enough though, especailly given the funds that he has had at his disposal. All I am saying is that he has the tools to be doing a better job. If the players aren't performing in training, then it's WS/AMc/KMcD's job to COACH them. What I am 'wondering' is if we had played players in their natural positions, had a tried and tested formation / system, had players coached properly, might we not be performing better? and as a fan, I have the right (or duty) to ask those questions

 

Cammy F

Edited April 30, 2009 by CammyF

[calscot 0]

 

If Eck didn't quite have it, what does that say about WS's 2nd spell in charge? Eck won 2 SPL titles, 5 domestic cup trophies, including a treble and got to the last 16 of the CL on a budget that was peanuts compared to what WS has had in his 2nd spell. Eck faced a better Celtc team - in fact, it was the 2nd most successful Celtc team in HISTORY.... Eck matched them trophy for trophy over his stewardship.

 

This is where your logic totally breaks down.

 

Walter's second spell has knocked Eck's into a cocked hat.

 

Let's see, Eck won 4 out of 10 cups he entered - 40%.

Smith has already won 2 out of 3 and has a good chance of 3 out of 4 = 66 - 75%.

 

Eck won 2 out of 4 leagues but was 3rd one season. His two leagues were incredibly close and he got that bit of luck which carried him through.

 

So 50% plus two absolutely nowheres.

 

I can't see how anyone but Tims could deny Walter was unlucky last year, I really can't. Our team was better than Celtic's but could not cope with the fixture run in. Most teams in history haven't coped.

 

Anyway Walter still has a chance of Winning this year which would put it at 50% also BUT when he lost it was incredibly close and with mitigation.

 

Number of pathetic failures - Eck 2 out of 4 - 50%, Walter 0%.

 

Number third places - Eck 25%, Walter 0%.

 

Walter even won his mini-season by 9 points with two games to go, whereas Eck lost his.

 

Walter has achieved 4 points in the league more that Celtic with Eck it was about negative 40.

 

Walter also has a much better record of head to heads with the Tims.

 

Any way you look at Walter is better - and you really need to give him two and a bit more seasons before comparing with Eck for numbers.

 

Walter has competed well in 9 out of 11 competitions in his second spell with only one bad one.

 

Eck competed well about half the time.

 

The peanuts for Eck is total nonsense. Take away his first 5 trophies won with much more expensive players than Walter can afford and what do you have?

 

Walter has had no more net money than Eck in his time and the money he has had is worth a lot less these days. Eck got the Boumsong money, Walter got the Hutton and Cuellar money.

 

Last 16 of the CL is an unfair comparison - he achieved the same points as Walter but other results went his way in a far, far easier group. I don't really want to put that achievement down but I think the UEFA cup run was far superior. Not only that Eck had 4 seasons to do it. Walter has had only two. Who is to say that he won't achieve it in the next couple of years? But Eck didn't achieve a final.

 

So Eck matched M'ONeil, but then hasn't Strachan done better than O'Neil, doesn't that make it harder now? These comparisons cannot be borne out.

 

Reasonably well isn't good enough though, especailly given the funds that he has had at his disposal.

 

What funds? He can hardly compete with the Championship. His net spend is actually pretty low - about 5M.

 

All I am saying is that he has the tools to be doing a better job.

 

A better job than whom? The rest of the SPL? Not one team has been better than ours since Walter took over. Just who are you comparing with? Eck was at a different time, how can you say he could do any better, especially when he was so poor at times?

 

Is Eck better than Struth because he beat the "2nd best team in Celtic history"? Are Struth titles rubbish because Celtic weren't so good? What kind of thinking is that?

 

When you compete, it's against the rest of the league not past teams. I said Walter was doing "ok" because he didn't quite win the title last year and he's one point behind this year and lost the final. There are plenty of extenuating circumstances behind it and those that support Rangers instead of picking and choosing when depending on the manager, know this well.

 

If the players aren't performing in training, then it's WS/AMc/KMcD's job to COACH them. What I am 'wondering' is if we had played players in their natural positions, had a tried and tested formation / system, had players coached properly, might we not be performing better? and as a fan, I have the right (or duty) to ask those questions

 

You could say the same of any team and manager in Rangers' history.

 

However Walter can hold his head high among any of them. In 9.5 seasons his biggest domestic crime is to come second by 3pts. How many Rangers managers can say that?

[CammyF 6,892]

But it isn't about points won over 3 seasons, its about how many SPL titles. I don't care if we win more points over the course of 2.5 seasons, if we don't win the title. That is a non-arguement.

 

Eck was lucky was he? How can you say that? In his first SPL title we won Ecks team scored over 100 goals. They played wonderful football and won the SPL title against a Celtc team who had won the treble the previous season (IIRC) and got to the UEFA Cup final. To say he was lucky is chirlish and plays down a wonderful achievement and some wonderful fooball. Some of the displays that season were the best I can remember. He also won the treble that season, something that you sidestepped for some reason.

 

Helicopter Sunday could be delared as 'lucky', but we won the SPL title by a point. We came from a position where not even us the fans thought was possible. In the post split games we managed to not only match Celtc, but over take them. The springboard being a 3-1 victory at Pittodrie inspired by Ferguson and Prso. So, in his lucky season, he gained more points in the SPL than any other team. I don't think that is luck - the whole point of football is gaining more points PER season than the oppostion. Eck managed that.

 

Walter Smith has had more money to spend than AMc no matter what way you spin it. Getting to the last 16 of the CL is on par with getting to a UEFA Cup Final. As a Rangers fan, I am extremely proud of both achievements and would never down-play either of them. No matter what you or I think of the groups that we did and din't qualify from, both were wonderfull achievements. Also worth noting that AMc's side were very unfortunate to be knocked out by Villarreal in the last 16. Villarreal themselves were very unlucky themselves to lose to Arsenal in the CL semi-finals.

 

I fail to see how anyone can claim that not winning the SPL title is somehow more heroic that winning it. AMc, for all his faults and failings managed it twice. WS has yet to recapture the title during his 2nd spell as manager. Failure over success? Not for this fan.

 

A better job than whom? The rest of the SPL? Not one team has been better than ours since Walter took over. Just who are you comparing with? Eck was at a different time, how can you say he could do any better, especially when he was so poor at times?

 

So if WS has a better record than any other manager in the SPL why did we lose the SPL title last season and why are we currently 1 point behind Celtc this season?

 

Is Eck better than Struth because he beat the "2nd best team in Celtic history"? Are Struth titles rubbish because Celtic weren't so good? What kind of thinking is that?

 

What an utterly obtuse thing to say - Struth is the greatest ever Rangers Manager, in fact, probably the greatest ever Ranger full stop. What is your point here? Mr Struth will never be bettered in this fans eyes.

 

I just find it amazing the lengths some fans will go to try and paint WS as something that he is not. He hasn't won the SPL title in his 2nd spell in charge. No matter how this is painted, it is a fact. So what if he won his mini-season (btw, wtf is a mini-season and how can you seriously think that that fact matters since we lost the title).

 

 

Cammy F

Edited April 30, 2009 by CammyF

[calscot 0]

But it isn't about points won over 3 seasons, its about how many SPL titles. I don't care if we win more points over the course of 2.5 seasons, if we don't win the title. That is a non-arguement.

 

Maybe that's why so many Rangers fans can't be pleased. I find it incredibly weird in the extreme that people think being pipped at the post is the same as being a mile behind. It's not

 

I'm really glad the likes of SDM doesn't think that way or we'd still have Eck or even Le Guen.

 

Competition is really about competing and Eck did not do that for two seasons.

 

You may think a guy who misses the target by miles twice and just hits the bull a couple of times is a great marksman but I don't. I think he's lucky. A guy who get's 7 bulls-eyes in a row and then a couple of times narrowly misses is pretty good - especially when his biggest narrow miss is when he's been unsportingly distracted by the opposition.

 

If you think being out of the running by Christmas compared to being in the running till the last game is the same, then to me you are very, very strange.

 

Maybe that's why you're so critical now, you're acting like we're 17 points behind when you don't seem to get that we are close to winning the title. In your mind we've already failed and so it's the same as being 3rd and 20 points behind.

 

Eck was lucky was he? How can you say that? In his first SPL title we won Ecks team scored over 100 goals. They played wonderful football and won the SPL title against a Celtc team who had won the treble the previous season (IIRC) and got to the UEFA Cup final. To say he was lucky is chirlish and plays down a wonderful achievement and some wonderful fooball. Some of the displays that season were the best I can remember. He also won the treble that season, something that you sidestepped for some reason.

 

Right back at you with the curlish over Walter. Eck didn't have the bad luck of having to play so many games at the end of the season. In fact Celtic's chances were hindered by the UEFA final in the same way as for Walter, so yes there is plenty of evidence of luck.

 

I never sidestepped the treble - however, but for an unprecedented fixture list, I'm pretty sure it would have been trumped last season.

 

The UEFA cup final helped Eck to the treble while it took Walter's away. So how can one be wonderful and the other crap?

 

Eck also did it with Advocaat's team that was incredibly expensive paid for by money we didn't have. However, you call that peanuts compared to Walter.

 

Eck did well in his first full season but he failed badly in two seasons to compete even with the money he had. He was beaten by Hearts who had far less money. Walter has never been beaten in that way.

 

Helicopter Sunday could be delared as 'lucky', but we won the SPL title by a point. We came from a position where not even us the fans thought was possible. In the post split games we managed to not only match Celtc, but over take them. The springboard being a 3-1 victory at Pittodrie inspired by Ferguson and Prso. So, in his lucky season, he gained more points in the SPL than any other team. I don't think that is luck - the whole point of football is gaining more points PER season than the oppostion. Eck managed that.

 

Yes and Walter was way ahead last season until the fixture pile up. When a league is won or lost by a few points, luck is definitely going to count somewhere.

 

Walter Smith has had more money to spend than AMc no matter what way you spin it. Getting to the last 16 of the CL is on par with getting to a UEFA Cup Final.

 

No it isn't. It's one only more round than the last 32 and in a knock out competition you can easily get a favourable draw. Eck did no better than Walter in the league stage in an easier group yet went through... And you talk about spin...

 

So Celtic had a better European season then? You must have been the only Rangers fan who thought so.

 

As a Rangers fan, I am extremely proud of both achievements and would never down-play either of them. No matter what you or I think of the groups that we did and din't qualify from, both were wonderfull achievements. Also worth noting that AMc's side were very unfortunate to be knocked out by Villarreal in the last 16. Villarreal themselves were very unlucky themselves to lose to Arsenal in the CL semi-finals.

 

So Eck gets bad luck but no good and Walter gets no bad luck. Walter was far unluckier than Eck.

 

I fail to see how anyone can claim that not winning the SPL title is somehow more heroic that winning it. AMc, for all his faults and failings managed it twice. WS has yet to recapture the title during his 2nd spell as manager. Failure over success? Not for this fan.

 

It's not more heroic than winning it but there is more to it than the black and white of winning and losing. Seems to me you should forget about the football and just look at the table once a year.

 

It's obvious you change your argument between the two managers and you hate Walter and love Eck.

 

You'll never be able to see it outside those parameters.

 

Your comparisons with Eck have been meaningless considering he had 4.5 seasons and Walter hasn't even had two.

 

 

 

So if WS has a better record than any other manager in the SPL why did we lose the SPL title last season and why are we currently 1 point behind Celtc this season?

 

Walter has won more league points and cup games than any other manager since he came back - and that's despite others cheating and getting outrageous decisions.

 

 

 

 

 

What an utterly obtuse thing to say - Struth is the greatest ever Rangers Manager, in fact, probably the greatest ever Ranger full stop. What is your point here? Mr Struth will never be bettered in this fans eyes.

 

It's obtuse because I'm using your own logic. How can you say Struth was any good when you haven't seen his teams play? How do you know that the opposition we not just crap? After all Celtic didn't have either of their two best managers.

 

It just shows how obtuse your previous argument was.

 

 

I just find it amazing the lengths some fans will go to try and paint WS as something that he is not. He hasn't won the SPL title in his 2nd spell in charge. No matter how this is painted, it is a fact. So what if he won his mini-season (btw, wtf is a mini-season and how can you seriously think that that fact matters since we lost the title).

Cammy F

 

I find this highly ironic.

 

You make out a manager who came close to the quadruple one year and still in the title race and final and a runners up in a cup the next, to be a complete failure.

 

I would put it to you, that THAT is definitely something he's not.

 

He hasn't won the SPL title in his 2nd spell in charge. No matter how this is painted, it is a fact.

 

So....

 

It was a horrendous task in first season but he made a great fist of it but he failed eh?

 

Last season he would have won but his own success in all competitions got in the way in the end - and I really don't know why I have to keep pointing this out to a Rangers fan who just can't grasp it. But despite all that he failed eh?

 

This season is not over yet and so he can't win it. So he's failed eh?

 

And THAT is your "fact"???????

 

I think that is your argument in a nutshell.

 

He's had one proper go won, two cups, got to a UEFA final was well ahead in the league and lost on the last due to the fixtures congestion. Because of that you hate him...

 

You are one strange fan.

 

 

 

 

 

.

[CammyF 6,892]

Maybe that's why so many Rangers fans can't be pleased. I find it incredibly weird in the extreme that people think being pipped at the post is the same as being a mile behind. It's not

 

I'm really glad the likes of SDM doesn't think that way or we'd still have Eck or even Le Guen.

 

Competition is really about competing and Eck did not do that for two seasons.

 

You may think a guy who misses the target by miles twice and just hits the bull a couple of times is a great marksman but I don't. I think he's lucky. A guy who get's 7 bulls-eyes in a row and then a couple of times narrowly misses is pretty good - especially when his biggest narrow miss is when he's been unsportingly distracted by the opposition.

 

If you think being out of the running by Christmas compared to being in the running till the last game is the same, then to me you are very, very strange.

 

Maybe that's why you're so critical now, you're acting like we're 17 points behind when you don't seem to get that we are close to winning the title. In your mind we've already failed and so it's the same as being 3rd and 20 points behind.

 

Foortball is black and white - if you win the title, you are a winner. 2nd downwards is a failure. Maybe we should reprint our entire history to include in our many honours (a world record don't you know) the titles that we've not won. Nah, that's been chirlish, why don't we just include those titles we've lost,where we are deemed to have been unfortunate. Like the season we never lost a game but still lost the League Title. That is far more unlucky than WS has ever been. Can we add that to our honours.

 

Why do you insist on comparing football to other walks of life? You can't compare it. In football, you are either a winner or a loser. We've been losers in SPL terms for the last 3 seasons. No matter how you spin it, its a fact. Another fact, whether you like ot or not, the last Rangers manager to win the SPL title was AMc - he didn't just win it once, but twice.

 

Right back at you with the curlish over Walter. Eck didn't have the bad luck of having to play so many games at the end of the season. In fact Celtic's chances were hindered by the UEFA final in the same way as for Walter, so yes there is plenty of evidence of luck.

 

I never sidestepped the treble - however, but for an unprecedented fixture list, I'm pretty sure it would have been trumped last season.

 

The UEFA cup final helped Eck to the treble while it took Walter's away. So how can one be wonderful and the other crap?

 

Eck also did it with Advocaat's team that was incredibly expensive paid for by money we didn't have. However, you call that peanuts compared to Walter.

 

Eck did well in his first full season but he failed badly in two seasons to compete even with the money he had. He was beaten by Hearts who had far less money. Walter has never been beaten in that way.

 

Where did I say either was crap? I said they were both achievements that I was extremely proud off. AMc had no money to spend no matter who he inherited. He had to sell ~6 players every season, yet still managed a treble, 2 league titles, 5 domestic trophies and the last 16 of the CL. If that is classed as a manager who just doesn't have it, I hate to see who you class as a manager who does have it (oh wait, that'll be Walter Smith).

 

Walter Smith has spent �£20M this seasons ALONE. We are still in the SPL title race (thankfully) but it remains to be seen whether we can win the title. If we don't then WS has shown that he is a complete and utter failure in SPL terms.

 

Yes and Walter was way ahead last season until the fixture pile up. When a league is won or lost by a few points, luck is definitely going to count somewhere.

 

Luck is invovled in most, if not every football game. However, no matter what excuses are put forward, we should have won the SPL title last season. We were so far in front BEFORE the fixture pile-up. The reason we lost the league was our inablility to win at Easter Road, Fir park, Pittodrie etc. The final nail in our coffin was the performance and result at Fir Park the Sunday after Manchester. A 1-1 draw after going 1-0 up was the result that confirmed to me (at least) that the title was heading to Torbett Towers. WS has to take some responsibility as anyone at the game knew that Motherwell were going to score, yet WS refused to change his tactics or formation - something he is very guilty off.

 

It's not more heroic than winning it but there is more to it than the black and white of winning and losing. Seems to me you should forget about the football and just look at the table once a year.

 

It's obvious you change your argument between the two managers and you hate Walter and love Eck.

 

You'll never be able to see it outside those parameters.

 

Your comparisons with Eck have been meaningless considering he had 4.5 seasons and Walter hasn't even had two.

 

Football is black and white - if you win the league you are winners, if you don't finish first you are losers. Simply as that. If you can't comprehend this, I suggest that you are watching the wrong sport. The ONLY place I want my team to be is FIRST. Simple as that really. I believe that Rangers should be first most seasons. The reasons? We should aspire to be the best, we should be coached properly and that clearly isn't happening. SDM must love you, a fan that will accept 2nd best and doesn't question the status quo, the poor coaching levels, the tatical decisions, the formations etc. As a fan, we have the right to question ALL OF THE ABOVE.

 

No it isn't. It's one only more round than the last 32 and in a knock out competition you can easily get a favourable draw. Eck did no better than Walter in the league stage in an easier group yet went through... And you talk about spin...

 

So Celtic had a better European season then? You must have been the only Rangers fan who thought so.

 

Miss-representing what I said and controdicting yourself here. I never said getting to the last 16 of the CL was better than getting to the final of the UEFA Cup. Why do you insist on doing this and using utterly obtuse responses to a well reasoned arguement? So if you don't think they are a par, then everyone else who doesn't agree is wrong? Jeez, I bow to your superior knowledge and reasoning.

 

It's obtuse because I'm using your own logic. How can you say Struth was any good when you haven't seen his teams play? How do you know that the opposition we not just crap? After all Celtic didn't have either of their two best managers.

 

It just shows how obtuse your previous argument was.

 

So, because I haven't seen Struths team play, I can't comment, yet I'm being OBTUSE? I didn't see them play, however, I have researched Struth, I have listened to tales from older and wiser fans than myself. I have an interest in his achievements and the legacy he left.

 

Once again, you are twisting logic to try and support your obtuseness (is that a word) - not what I said.

 

The point I was making was that MON the Celtc manager AMc was upagainst was lauded bny many, including some Rangers fans as one of the best managers in Europe. He was heralded as the greatest manager in the Scottish game since Jock Stein. He led Celtc to their 2nd most successful period in THEIR (not OURS) history and was rightly or wrongly promoted as a great manager. Meanwhile accross the city, AMc matched his achievements (trophy wise) and YOU class him as 'didn't have it'. So one manager is a 'god' the other a nothing yet they were equally successful.

 

AMc had faults and failings and will never go down as one of our most successful managers, rightly so, others have a far better record (Struth as an example). However, that can't deflect from the fact that he was reasonabley successful no matter how you try to play this down.

 

Walter has won more league points and cup games than any other manager since he came back - and that's despite others cheating and getting outrageous decisions.

 

Yet, he still hasn't won the SPL title.

 

I find this highly ironic.

 

You make out a manager who came close to the quadruple one year and still in the title race and final and a runners up in a cup the next, to be a complete failure.

 

I would put it to you, that THAT is definitely something he's not.

 

Twisting words again - where did I say WS was a complete failure? He has failed to win the SPL title (2nd stint as manager) that can't be argued. That makes him a failure SPL wise, not a complete failure.

 

So....

 

It was a horrendous task in first season but he made a great fist of it but he failed eh?

 

Last season he would have won but his own success in all competitions got in the way in the end - and I really don't know why I have to keep pointing this out to a Rangers fan who just can't grasp it. But despite all that he failed eh?

 

This season is not over yet and so he can't win it. So he's failed eh?

 

And THAT is your "fact"???????

 

I think that is your argument in a nutshell.

 

He's had one proper go won, two cups, got to a UEFA final was well ahead in the league and lost on the last due to the fixtures congestion. Because of that you hate him...

 

You are one strange fan.

 

Who said this season is over? Where I have I said that we can't win the title this year? Where I have I said that I HATE HIM? FFS what a complete and utterly tosserish thing to say. Did you read my review on SILVERSMITH? I have respect for WS but that doesn't stop me looking at his performance as a manager and seeing that with all the tools he has at his disposal, he should be doing a better job. If that equates to hatrid in your eyes, then I suggest that it is you that is not only a 'strange fan', but a 'strange human being'.....

 

Cammy F