pete 2,499 Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 What run in Europe did they have in the Helicopter Sunday season? Maybe played 'better football' but couldn't amass more points than we did.... IIRC, they got 1 less point than we did.... I thought that was the year they got to the final but with your reply i guess i am wrong. Glad to admit i am not an expert in Sceptic history Different memories for me that season then - IMO if it weren't for BF that season we wouldn't have been in a position to win the league on the last day of the season. Cammy F I admire your loyalty to him Cammy as with Eck but sometimes you can stay loyal too long as with Eck. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ascender 352 Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Sorry, but for a long time now Barry has been surviving on his past reputation. I can't remember the last time he had a few games in a row where he was back to his best, running the show and dominating everything from one penalty box to the other. He's just a shadow of his former self tbh and I don't think we can carry someone like him just now. Hemdani & Clement have played well,but we need someone alongside them with a bit of passion and drive. Its time to try Adam or Rae I think and let Barry get fully fit in the reserves. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CammyF 6,784 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I admire your loyalty to him Cammy as with Eck but sometimes you can stay loyal too long as with Eck. So pointing out that AM won the double then the treble in his first season and half at Rangers is showing too much loyalty? This isnââ?¬â?¢t loyalty, it is fact. In some eyes, AM was the worst manager in our history, yet he was able to match Craptics 2nd most successful manager for honours. He also managed to guide Rangers to the last 16 of the Champions League, which given our horrendous European record of the last 30 years was some achievement. Yet, all of the above wasnââ?¬â?¢t enough for some fans. Stating that I understand the constraints and restrictions AM worked under and understanding that the man tried to resign 3 times, only to continue in his post to allow DM ââ?¬Ë?breathing spaceââ?¬â?¢ isnââ?¬â?¢t loyalty, it is fact. Lets remember that AM could have made a lot of money for telling his side of the story, but the man kept his mouth shut and kept his dignity in tact. As for Barry Ferguson, he hasnââ?¬â?¢t been fit since he returned to Rangers. He has played (rightly or wrongly) thro injuries and has delayed an operation to try and help Rangers. And how do we the fans thank him for that? We want to ââ?¬Ë?dump himââ?¬â?¢. Given time and games, BF will return to the player he was a few seasons ago. BF was a stand-out for Blackburn in the EPL (read the reports posted by Frankie from Blackburn websites) so the SPL will hold no fears for Fergie (if he is allowed to play his natural game and has support in midfield). Saying all of the above, I also understand the factors that are holding PLG back. He is one of the best coaches in Europe but he isnââ?¬â?¢t being given the backing and support he needs / deserves. This was demonstrated in the summer when we ââ?¬Ë?missed outââ?¬â?¢ on his first choice players. He is also facing the same problems as previous managers in that our Youth Development is a farce ââ?¬â?? we havenââ?¬â?¢t had enough money put into this, it isnââ?¬â?¢t structured properly and we have continually rotated the coaching staff. During the summer, I naively believed David Murray when he stated that getting PLG was the beginning of a new exciting chapter for Rangers Football Club ââ?¬â?? the new manager was in place, Murray had many financial packages in place (only one developed) and stupidly, I believed that this meant the manager would have some funds available and the Youth Set-Up would receive the finance and restructuring it required. PLG could take Rangers to a new level, but this wonââ?¬â?¢t happen with Murray in charge. We need a board who will support the manager correctly, restructure of Youth Set-Up, back the club and fans against our enemies, continue to grow Rangers financially and unite us under the Rangers family. Yet I am accused of being short-term and fickle, if I am, what does that make our ââ?¬Ë?Custodianââ?¬â?¢? Cammy F 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 2,499 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 So pointing out that AM won the double then the treble in his first season and half at Rangers is showing too much loyalty? This isnââ?¬â?¢t loyalty, it is fact. In some eyes, AM was the worst manager in our history, yet he was able to match Craptics 2nd most successful manager for honours. He also managed to guide Rangers to the last 16 of the Champions League, which given our horrendous European record of the last 30 years was some achievement. Yet, all of the above wasnââ?¬â?¢t enough for some fans. Stating that I understand the constraints and restrictions AM worked under and understanding that the man tried to resign 3 times, only to continue in his post to allow DM ââ?¬Ë?breathing spaceââ?¬â?¢ isnââ?¬â?¢t loyalty, it is fact. Lets remember that AM could have made a lot of money for telling his side of the story, but the man kept his mouth shut and kept his dignity in tact. Eck does have a good record Cammy i don't think anyone can deny that but he said judge me when it is my team. We did because the team could hardly put 3 passes together at the end, a bit like sunday really. In the end he had lost all discipline and it was reported the players were pushing him out. I admit that is hearsay evidence. He also made a dick of himself with the Craig Moore incident which along with other incidents as Lovenkrands, showed he could not make important decisions. He also picked his teams to counter the opponents instead of playing to our strenghts. You could say he won everything in Scotland exept the Rangers fans hearts. That he had no resources is crap he had a far bigger budget than PLG does, he could pay players 20-30 thousand a week and had 4mill+ for Barry and a few million for players that were so bad we had to pay them off. As for Barry Ferguson, he hasnââ?¬â?¢t been fit since he returned to Rangers. He has played (rightly or wrongly) thro injuries and has delayed an operation to try and help Rangers. And how do we the fans thank him for that? We want to ââ?¬Ë?dump himââ?¬â?¢. Given time and games, BF will return to the player he was a few seasons ago. BF was a stand-out for Blackburn in the EPL (read the reports posted by Frankie from Blackburn websites) so the SPL will hold no fears for Fergie (if he is allowed to play his natural game and has support in midfield). I will beg to differ from you here Cammy, i think apart from one season he was always a mediocre player(I can't judge at Blackburn) and as i said in another thread my biggest problem is that he lets players run away from him which puts pressure on the defence. Saying all of the above, I also understand the factors that are holding PLG back. He is one of the best coaches in Europe but he isnââ?¬â?¢t being given the backing and support he needs / deserves. This was demonstrated in the summer when we ââ?¬Ë?missed outââ?¬â?¢ on his first choice players. He is also facing the same problems as previous managers in that our Youth Development is a farce ââ?¬â?? we havenââ?¬â?¢t had enough money put into this, it isnââ?¬â?¢t structured properly and we have continually rotated the coaching staff. During the summer, I naively believed David Murray when he stated that getting PLG was the beginning of a new exciting chapter for Rangers Football Club ââ?¬â?? the new manager was in place, Murray had many financial packages in place (only one developed) and stupidly, I believed that this meant the manager would have some funds available and the Youth Set-Up would receive the finance and restructuring it required. PLG could take Rangers to a new level, but this wonââ?¬â?¢t happen with Murray in charge. We need a board who will support the manager correctly, restructure of Youth Set-Up, back the club and fans against our enemies, continue to grow Rangers financially and unite us under the Rangers family. Yet I am accused of being short-term and fickle, if I am, what does that make our ââ?¬Ë?Custodianââ?¬â?¢? I agree with almost all of that but at the moment it looks like we are stuck with him. I think it will get worse before it gets better as it looks like he is closing all taps to sell up. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CammyF 6,784 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Eck does have a good record Cammy i don't think anyone can deny that but he said judge me when it is my team. We did because the team could hardly put 3 passes together at the end So teams that cannot string 3 passes together routinely get to the last 16 of the Champions League and get knocked out by one of the best teams in the compition that year? A team that only kncoked us out on away goals (one which was off-side) and a team that we played off the pitch in their own back-yard? Eck does have a good record Cammy i don't think anyone can deny that It is not denied, but even on here it is argued against - even you were saying that his 2 league titles were lucky and against shit opposion. That he had no resources is crap he had a far bigger budget than PLG does, he could pay players 20-30 thousand a week and had 4mill+ for Barry and a few million for players that were so bad we had to pay them off. AM spent around �£10M in his 4 years, he brought in over �£30M in the same period as he was forced to sell out best players (to bring down the wage bill). No manager could live with having to sell their best players year in, year out and replacing them with inferior players. IIRC, every close season AM lost around 8-10 players and signed around 6-8 to replace them. I will beg to differ from you here Cammy, i think apart from one season he was always a mediocre player(I can't judge at Blackburn) and as i said in another thread my biggest problem is that he lets players run away from him which puts pressure on the defence. You should look at the videos of DA's seasons at Rangers - watch BF play in a midfield 4 that included players like Gio, Albertz, Reyna etc and watch him in Europe, especially against Laverkausen (sp) away. The watch AM's first season and a half and watch the influence BF has on Rangers and on experienced players like RDB - it was a joy to watch. I agree with almost all of that but at the moment it looks like we are stuck with him. I think it will get worse before it gets better as it looks like he is closing all taps to sell up. We may be stuck with him, but that shouldn't stop us trying to get him to right his wrongs, to get him to push Rangers to where we belong. Cammy F 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calscot 0 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 In some eyes, AM was the worst manager in our history I doubt anyone would say that John Grieg was better - although I suppose you could argue that he had his hands financially tied considering the comparitive megabucks given to Eck... 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calscot 0 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 He also managed to guide Rangers to the last 16 of the Champions League, which given our horrendous European record of the last 30 years was some achievement Rangers have got to the last 16 many times in European competitions in the last 30 years - 14 times in fact... 8 times in the premier tournament and 3 times to the last 8. Every other manager in the last 30 years did it at least twice. He also only managed to get to the last 136 in a European competition, the only year we were worse is 81 when we didn't even qualify. Eck's average is about the last 64. DA's was about last 24 as was WS, GS and JW. JG averaged about 40 if you count the DNQ as 128. So in many ways you could argue Eck was easily the worst manager in Europe for Rangers in the past 30 years... *2006 Last 16 Eck (CL) 2005 Last 48 Eck 2004 Last 32 Eck 2003 Last 136 Eck *2002 Last 16 DA (Eck lost in last 16) *2001 Last 16 DA 2001 Last 32 DA 2000 Last 32 DA *1999 Last 16 DA 1998 Last 64 WS *1997 Last 16 WS (CL) *1996 Last 16 WS (CL) 1995 Last 32 WS 1994 Last 32 WS *1993 Last 8 WS (CL) Really last 4 had there been a semi final. 1992 Last 32 GS/WS *1991 Last 16 GS (EC) 1990 Last 32 GS 1989 Last 32 GS *1988 Last 8 GS (EC) *1987 Last 16 GS 1986 Last 64 GS 1985 Last 32 JW *1984 Last 16 JW 1983 Last 32 JG 1982 Last 32 JG 1981 DNQ JG *1980 Last 16 JG *1979 Last 8 JG (EC) 1978 Last 32 JW 1977 Last 32 JW *1976 Last 16 JW (EC) 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CammyF 6,784 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I doubt anyone would say that John Grieg was better - although I suppose you could argue that he had his hands financially tied considering the comparitive megabucks given to Eck... Yeah, and Jock Wallace received millions when he won 2 trebles in 3 years :yawn: John Grieg's first season saw Rangers play some of the best football I have witnessed, especially on the European stage. We lost the league to Craptic, but in reality, we should have won it. I really do wonder how good Grieg could have been as a manager. If only he had won that league title, I firmly believe that JG would have become a legend as a manager as he did as a player. Cammy F 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CammyF 6,784 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Rangers have got to the last 16 many times in European competitions in the last 30 years - 14 times in fact... 8 times in the premier tournament and 3 times to the last 8. Every other manager in the last 30 years did it at least twice. He also only managed to get to the last 136 in a European competition, the only year we were worse is 81 when we didn't even qualify. Eck's average is about the last 64. DA's was about last 24 as was WS, GS and JW. JG averaged about 40 if you count the DNQ as 128. So in many ways you could argue Eck was easily the worst manager in Europe for Rangers in the past 30 years... *2006 Last 16 Eck (CL) 2005 Last 48 Eck 2004 Last 32 Eck 2003 Last 136 Eck *2002 Last 16 DA (Eck lost in last 16) *2001 Last 16 DA 2001 Last 32 DA 2000 Last 32 DA *1999 Last 16 DA 1998 Last 64 WS *1997 Last 16 WS (CL) *1996 Last 16 WS (CL) 1995 Last 32 WS 1994 Last 32 WS *1993 Last 8 WS (CL) Really last 4 had there been a semi final. 1992 Last 32 GS/WS *1991 Last 16 GS (EC) 1990 Last 32 GS 1989 Last 32 GS *1988 Last 8 GS (EC) *1987 Last 16 GS 1986 Last 64 GS 1985 Last 32 JW *1984 Last 16 JW 1983 Last 32 JG 1982 Last 32 JG 1981 DNQ JG *1980 Last 16 JG *1979 Last 8 JG (EC) 1978 Last 32 JW 1977 Last 32 JW *1976 Last 16 JW (EC) Go back your list and see how many games they had to play to get to the last 16 of the CL. Souness done it by playing only 2 games :yawn: If you are going to make comparisons, make sure you give all the details behind them. And, even with the above, that is still a horrendous tale for a team like Rangers Cammy F 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calscot 0 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Go back your list and see how many games they had to play to get to the last 16 of the CL. Souness done it by playing only 2 games :yawn: If you are going to make comparisons, make sure you give all the details behind them. And, even with the above, that is still a horrendous tale for a team like Rangers Cammy F Cammy it is obviously hard to compare as there are arguments from both sides. You might only have to win two games to get to the EC last 16 but they were against one of the top 32 champions in Europe, not Viktoria Zhizkov, Fenerbache, Panathanaikos, Maritimo, Auxerre, Armedia Bratislava or Villa Real. You could also say it's easier to progress from a group than a knockout stage especially as we've been knocked out in the first round by the eventual champions in the past eg Red Star Belgrade. If we had drawn inter milan in the 2nd round we'd have been out. So using your own argument you can't really say that Eck's achievement was overly significant in the context of the last 30 years. But to be honest I do think our recent UEFA history is pretty horendous but would never boast about an isolated last 16 finish. Consistantly in the last 16 and sometimes better would be the real achievement. Eck's consistancy in Europe was probably the worst of all time and is one of the reasons he was never popular. Winning the treble was massively soured by going out in the first round of the UEFA cup to complete minnows. Then when he just about punched our weight (but not above) in the CL, he ruined it by winning nothing and unforgivably finished 3rd in the league. Not only that, he did it with a brand of football which was painful to watch. Ultimately he even left us with a team that had little merit in it and we're back to a rebuilding job again. Is it any wonder he's not so fondly remembered? 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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