Vanguard Bears - No Third Chances

[Stimpy 0]

I think it's terrible the way so many fans are turning on Ally.

 

• despite not having had a full season in charge with a squad anywhere near the standard of any other Rangers squad in over 2 decades
  
• despite not having had a full season in charge with a notable amount of cash to spend on improving the squad
  
• despite not having had a full season in charge without unprecedented circumstances which seriously affect the squad to deal with
  
• despite helping to hold the club together when it was on it's knees
  

 

 

....the fans are turning on him in droves because they're not happy with the performances and results almost as though none of the extenuating circumstances ever existed and almost as if it wasn't even Super Ally, but some random manager who isn't even a fan never mind one of THE club legends.

 

It's breaking my heart because I've got to say, I would be extremely sympathetic to ANY manager that's been working under the circumstances Ally has had to, but this is Ally McCoist we're talking about. Does he deserve to be treated differently because of who he is? In a word... YES and especially given all of the circumstances at the club since he took over from Walter!!!

 

Something else that's annoying me is that there's a fair number of fans who didn't want Ally taking over from Walter in the first place and since he took over a lot of them have been chip chip chipping away at him at every single opportunity. There's no stopping them, it's like an unstoppable fully laden freight train. The circumstances surrounding the club this season and last season don't matter a jot to them. The fact that it's Super Ally doesn't matter a jot to them. They didn't want him being the manager of Rangers and they'll do anything to get him out. Some of these people even have the audacity to say that they want Ally to succeed when they don't want him to succeed at all. There's people who just want him out and they'll happily see our performances deteriorate with a snowball effect if it means their wish of getting rid of Ally comes true.

 

I remember a phrase "we deserve better".

 

Well, Ally McCoist deserves better too.

 

Totally agree. You've just explained my thoughts. I was in discussion over this during the week and I admitted I was torn between my love of Ally, the macro factors Ally's dealt with, but what I was watching on the park, and how Ally's written off every doubter throughout his career. It didn't help that rumours of big splits in the camp and youngsters slagging Ally off in Public to journos were in full flow. Honestly, a clear out is needed and rumours say it's already began.

[DUDE 0]

I think looking at the team now and at the start of the season can give a pretty clear view on his work, because this is detached from the situation. We're not talking absolute performance but performance in relation to the same set of players half a year back. That has actually gotten worse in my opinion and that has nothing to do with surroundings, but with coaching not able to make them better.

[UCF2008 0]

I think looking at the team now and at the start of the season can give a pretty clear view on his work, because this is detached from the situation. We're not talking absolute performance but performance in relation to the same set of players half a year back. That has actually gotten worse in my opinion and that has nothing to do with surroundings, but with coaching not able to make them better.

 

So you're saying that performances have got worse because our coaching staff have ruined the players within the space of 6 months?

 

If training was as inept as is being made out, why do we have former players coming back to train with us so frequently during off season or when they're between clubs? I suppose lazy Boyd was back for a scrounge while investing in shares eh? What was Kenny Miller's excuse? Or Stevie Smith who was still training with us last time I checked?

Edited March 27, 2013 by UCF2008

[DUDE 0]

I'm not saying training is inept, the package isn't right. I'm not enough of an expert to judge whether the problem is training, tactics, Ally's leadership or whatnot. However, it seems to be a combination of all of them. The coaching staff haven't ruined any players but the team as a whole is not improving one bit, there's no denying this is, whatever the reasons.

[Davie P 4]

Originally Posted by Zappa

 

 

 

I think it's terrible the way so many fans are turning on Ally.

 

 

 

....the fans are turning on him in droves because they're not happy with the performances and results almost as though none of the extenuating circumstances ever existed and almost as if it wasn't even Super Ally, but some random manager who isn't even a fan never mind one of THE club legends.

 

It's breaking my heart because I've got to say, I would be extremely sympathetic to ANY manager that's been working under the circumstances Ally has had to, but this is Ally McCoist we're talking about. Does he deserve to be treated differently because of who he is? In a word... YES and especially given all of the circumstances at the club since he took over from Walter!!!

 

Something else that's annoying me is that there's a fair number of fans who didn't want Ally taking over from Walter in the first place and since he took over a lot of them have been chip chip chipping away at him at every single opportunity. There's no stopping them, it's like an unstoppable fully laden freight train. The circumstances surrounding the club this season and last season don't matter a jot to them. The fact that it's Super Ally doesn't matter a jot to them. They didn't want him being the manager of Rangers and they'll do anything to get him out. Some of these people even have the audacity to say that they want Ally to succeed when they don't want him to succeed at all. There's people who just want him out and they'll happily see our performances deteriorate with a snowball effect if it means their wish of getting rid of Ally comes true.

 

I remember a phrase "we deserve better".

 

Well, Ally McCoist deserves better too.

 

Zappa, you have made some very valid comments and only time will tell if you are correct or not. I will openly state that I did not believe that Ally should have been appointed to replace WS, so am not a Johnny-come-lately jumping on the bandwagon based upon poor performances and results. However, I do not know of any single Rangers fan who is not desperate to see Ally turn it around. Ally was my hero growing up, and as a footballer and a man, he has my utmost respect and admiration. However, I love Rangers more than I love Ally McCoist and if it means that Ally needs to vacate the manager's position to take us to the next level, then so be it.

 

If we take your points and discuss them

 

1. Does he deserve to be treated differently because of who he is? In a word... YES - Ally has been treated differently. Had it been a PLG or an Alex Mcleish, they would have lost their job already.

2. Squad that is nowhere near the standard of Rangers teams over the past 20 years - He is playing against the weakest opposition that we have ever played against and still battling to put together cohesive tactics, strategies and performances.

3. despite not having had a full season in charge with a notable amount of cash to spend on improving the squad - Ally's track record when buying players has been woeful to say the least. Again, there are mitigating circumstances such as the Craig Whyte offers which made us a laughing stock, but overall, of the players bought, how many would you say have been an unqualified success? Also, do we need to buy expensive SPL players to win the 2nd and first divisions? (all things considered re league reconstruction)

4.despite not having had a full season in charge without unprecedented circumstances which seriously affect the squad to deal with - The unprecedented circumstances were during the close season and fully agree that this hugely disrupted preparations. However, we are now 8 months into the season and have seen no signs of improvement. In fact, most would argue that we are going backwards.

5. despite helping to hold the club together when it was on it's knees - without a doubt, Ally deserves enormous credit for this and should retain a role within the club. I dont believe that there is a bear alive who wouldn't want Ally to remain within the club in recognition of this fact. Does it have to be as manager?

 

 

Despite my concerns, there is no doubt that Ally will be in charge for next season for commercial as much as footballing reasons. However, Ally could make life so much easier for himself

a. Get an experienced 2IC. (Jimmy Calderwood?)

b. If we are going to go the Ajax route (Ally has expressed his admiration for the manner in which they develop youngsters but accept that they are a selling club) then have the academy as our key feature. Bring in continental coaches (Arthur Numan would crawl over broken glass to have a role within the club, Brian Laudrup is a club ambassador [iIRC]) who attract the best of Scottish and international young talent.

c. All teams (from youth to seniors) play using the same formation, style and tactics, so that when a youngster breaks into the team, he immediately understands his role.

d. All players bought should fit into the criteria of having a sell on value.

e. Should we not be looking at players within SFL 1 and 2 who have done well over this past season. QOS are smashing teams week in and week out. Who are their better players? Should we not be looking at some of their players who have a track record of success in SFL 2?

 

Nice and easy being a keyboard manager and I sympathise with the difficulties, but the club will always be bigger than one man.

[Zappa 0]

Totally agree. You've just explained my thoughts.

 

I'm sure we're not completely alone mate, but I think we're in a shrinking minority now.

 

I was in discussion over this during the week and I admitted I was torn between my love of Ally, the macro factors Ally's dealt with, but what I was watching on the park, and how Ally's written off every doubter throughout his career. It didn't help that rumours of big splits in the camp and youngsters slagging Ally off in Public to journos were in full flow. Honestly, a clear out is needed and rumours say it's already began.

 

To my mind if there's players slagging off Ally in public to journos they don't deserve to wear a Rangers strip and walk out onto the pitch at Auchenhowie to train never mind be playing at Ibrox. Ally might still be a big kid at heart and act like a clown sometimes, but he's done way more than enough to be deserving of the players' respect to a man and if there's some of them who've got a chip on their shoulder about Ally, then IMO they are a far bigger problem than the manager. Players should never ever be doing that even if they don't get on with their manager because they're not only disrespecting him, but disrespecting the club too. It's time these smart arse prima donas were brought crashing right back down to earth!

[Zappa 0]

If we take your points and discuss them

 

Sounds like a plan!

 

1. Does he deserve to be treated differently because of who he is? In a word... YES - Ally has been treated differently. Had it been a PLG or an Alex Mcleish, they would have lost their job already.

 

We can speculate, but it's almost impossible to say what would have happened had it been a PLG or McLeish. There would certainly have been fans wanting rid just as there are now and just as there always are with any manager.

 

2. Squad that is nowhere near the standard of Rangers teams over the past 20 years - He is playing against the weakest opposition that we have ever played against and still battling to put together cohesive tactics, strategies and performances.

 

Our opponents in the division deserve some credit to be fair about this because the standard of football they've played against us most weeks isn't much lower than we were facing every other week in the SPL. People keep harping on about our supposed part-time opposition and yes they do have a lot of part-time players, but most of the teams we're playing against have some players on loan from clubs in higher divisions and there's even ex-SPL and 1st division players at some of these wee clubs too. Even the part-time players by in large look like half decent players and most of them keep themselves in brilliant shape, which I think is admirable and worth noting instead of slagging them off and talking them down as if they're "just a plumber", "just a bricky" or whatever. Also worthy of note is that even a lot of their younger players have actually previously been in the youth systems at bigger clubs in the SPL, 1st Division and further afield, so they ARE football players and they deserve a little respect. If anything, I think our fans and the press talking them down as part-timers and mere butchers, electricians, tradesmen etc will have given them even more incentive to go out on the pitch and prove themselves against us by getting some kind of result, no matter what it takes. All the evidence is there to suggest that's the case.

 

3. despite not having had a full season in charge with a notable amount of cash to spend on improving the squad - Ally's track record when buying players has been woeful to say the least. Again, there are mitigating circumstances such as the Craig Whyte offers which made us a laughing stock, but overall, of the players bought, how many would you say have been an unqualified success?

 

I really don't think Ally's had a good enough chance to buy in the players he wants. In his first summer transfer window Craig Whyte had promised that the manager would have millions to invest in strengthening the squad and the truth of the matter is that Whyte was a complete and utter liar and Ally got virtually none of the players he really wanted because there was no money to spend. The players eventually bought in were balanced off against players going out that summer and not a dime was really spent. Whyte tried to make it look as if money was being invested in the squad, but it was a total lie. We had countless discussions on here about it at the time with myself forlan and one or two others trying to show the then-resident Craig Whyte loyal fan club that he was talking pish and that money wasn't being spent at all. If anything, it's highly likely that more hard cash will have come IN from that summers transfer dealings than what went out.

 

Also, do we need to buy expensive SPL players to win the 2nd and first divisions? (all things considered re league reconstruction)

 

In one sense, no we don't or at least shouldn't need to, but in another sense I can see the point of bringing in players in preparation for getting up to the next league level on the ladder back to the top. We're always going to need to have the best players in whatever league we're in, but I certainly don't think we needed to bring in Sandaza and Kyle this season and I don't think we need to be looking at the likes of Daly for next season. I'd far rather see more thought being put into future planning by investing in some talent that's going to have a sell-on value when we return to the top.

 

4.despite not having had a full season in charge without unprecedented circumstances which seriously affect the squad to deal with - The unprecedented circumstances were during the close season and fully agree that this hugely disrupted preparations. However, we are now 8 months into the season and have seen no signs of improvement. In fact, most would argue that we are going backwards.

 

As I said on another thread recently, the unprecedented circumstances are still ongoing. Ally and his team have essentially won the league, in fact they've had it in the bag for ages, but our players don't know what league they'll be playing in next season and they're also being told that there's a chance their efforts this season could be made meaningless by the crazy reconstruction and us being forced to remain in the lowest league playing against the same teams again next season. They should be professional enough to go out and earn their wages by giving 100% for the fans even although the league's essentially won already, but I can sort of understand why it looks like they've taken the foot off the gas too when you take all factors into consideration.

 

5. despite helping to hold the club together when it was on it's knees - without a doubt, Ally deserves enormous credit for this and should retain a role within the club. I dont believe that there is a bear alive who wouldn't want Ally to remain within the club in recognition of this fact. Does it have to be as manager?

 

Everyone's opinion is different, but I want Ally to take us back to the top as our manager and I want to see him lifting number 55. Much as I felt with Walter when the tide of opinion was against him, I want Ally to overcome it and I'm willing to put up with some poor performances and results along the road to see him lifting that SPL title again. I'd go as far as to say that there's possibly nobody I'd rather see lifting number 55 than Ally McCoist.

 

Despite my concerns, there is no doubt that Ally will be in charge for next season for commercial as much as footballing reasons. However, Ally could make life so much easier for himself

a. Get an experienced 2IC. (Jimmy Calderwood?)

 

I'm really not interested in seeing Jimmy Calderwood working in a managerial position for us at all. No offense to the man, but I've never been a fan of his.

 

b. If we are going to go the Ajax route (Ally has expressed his admiration for the manner in which they develop youngsters but accept that they are a selling club) then have the academy as our key feature. Bring in continental coaches (Arthur Numan would crawl over broken glass to have a role within the club, Brian Laudrup is a club ambassador [iIRC]) who attract the best of Scottish and international young talent.

 

Our youth system does need overhauled and I'd be delighted to see Sinclair shown the door for a start. As for getting big name ex-players to come and work full time for our youth system, it would maybe be great if possible, but we've been talking about that type of thing for years and I get the feeling that it's more of a pipe dream than a viable possibility. Never say never though, eh!

 

c. All teams (from youth to seniors) play using the same formation, style and tactics, so that when a youngster breaks into the team, he immediately understands his role.

 

I've seen this mentioned quite a lot over the years, but I don't know that it's necessarily right for Rangers. I'm not even sure that it's a valid goal to strive for as I think it's a bit of a contradiction in terms because to me, football formations, style and tactics are fluid, evolving and adaptable (or at least should be).

 

d. All players bought should fit into the criteria of having a sell on value.

 

This is something that really needs to be adopted at the club with virtually no exceptions because it's the only way for a big club like ours to flourish when we're playing in a backwater league with practically zero broadcasting revenue.

 

e. Should we not be looking at players within SFL 1 and 2 who have done well over this past season. QOS are smashing teams week in and week out. Who are their better players? Should we not be looking at some of their players who have a track record of success in SFL 2?

 

I wouldn't have a problem with us taking a closer look at their top scorer Nicky Clark who's the son of ex-Ger Sandy Clark (who coaches at QOS btw). 31 goals he's scored this season in total and he's the top scorer in the 2nd division by a mile. Only 22 as well, so still young!

Edited March 27, 2013 by Zappa

[simplythebest 0]

I doubt any Rangers fan would disagree with the concept of Ally being the dream figure to take Rangers back to where we belong. But surely we have to put the club before him as an individual? Exactly how long do we give it, how long do we 'put up with some poor performances and results'? It's not that i'm impatient but if we're not progressing then we're completely wasting years all because of some ideal about who we want to see bring us success. It shouldn't matter whether it's Ally McCoist, another popular ex-player, a foreigner with no prior connections etc, the success of the football club is what counts.

 

Ally has to earn the right to stay on just as any other manager would. I see no progress or encouragement and haven't for his near two seasons in charge, I believe any more time with him as our manager is a waste. However, for as long as he remains the possibility is there that he will prove me wrong, and I do so hope he does.

[UCF2008 0]

I doubt any Rangers fan would disagree with the concept of Ally being the dream figure to take Rangers back to where we belong. But surely we have to put the club before him as an individual? Exactly how long do we give it, how long do we 'put up with some poor performances and results'? It's not that i'm impatient but if we're not progressing then we're completely wasting years all because of some ideal about who we want to see bring us success. It shouldn't matter whether it's Ally McCoist, another popular ex-player, a foreigner with no prior connections etc, the success of the football club is what counts.

 

Ally has to earn the right to stay on just as any other manager would. I see no progress or encouragement and haven't for his near two seasons in charge, I believe any more time with him as our manager is a waste. However, for as long as he remains the possibility is there that he will prove me wrong, and I do so hope he does.

 

Absolutely. No man should come before the club. The way I see it we have a difference of opinion on where we should be as a club right now. We don't even agree on where we are. It's not about petty point scoring or love for a debate. You have your opinion and it's not the same as mine. I'm not interested in wasting my time trying to convince one another who's right and who's wrong. The support appears to be divided on the issue and I know I'm not going to claim to know what the majority opinion is. What I will say is that people who complain always shout loudest.

[Zappa 0]

Exactly how long do we give it, how long do we 'put up with some poor performances and results'?

 

As I've said many times now on here, I think Ally deserves to be given until he fails to win one of the leagues (on the way back up, that is). I would add though that I don't think it's realistic to expect a title win on our first season back in the premier league, but I would be expecting a top half finish or it's the chop for the manager. Second season? Top 2/3 finish and third season I would be demanding the title win.