Enemies

[andy steel 0]

Top writing Andy, enjoyed it very much. [i think!!]

 

Have to agree with you, we either change or become a Museum exhibit.

 

Depressingly, you have summed up in eight words what I took about 1,000 to do!

 

Tbf there are posters like yourself, BB54 or AMMS who have been calling for this sort of attitude for years, but I just couldn't get past the hate engendered during our agonies. But there's no alternative, when you look at it in the cold light of day.

[der Berliner 3,239]

Another outstanding piece of writing. Utterly outstanding. I may pick up on a few things after I get back from work, but for the time being I shall merely observe that your somewhat rosy view of the German language is almost certainly the result of never having studied it.

 

I highly recommend Mark Twain's views on the subject: http://german.about.com/library/blmtwain01.htm

 

Interesting, yet ...

A German speaks of an Englishman as the Engländer; to change the sex, he adds inn, and that stands for Englishwoman — Engländerinn. That seems descriptive enough, but still it is not exact enough for a German; so he precedes the word with that article which indicates that the creature to follow is feminine, and writes it down thus: "die Engländerinn," — which means "the she-Englishwoman." I consider that that person is over-described.

 

... is factually wrong and should read:

 

A German speaks of an Englishman as the Engländer; to change the sex, he adds in, and that stands for Englishwoman — Engländerin. That seems descriptive enough, but still it is not exact enough for a German; so he precedes the word with that article which indicates that the creature to follow is feminine, and writes it down thus: "die Engländerin," — which means "the Englishwoman." I consider that that person is over-described.

 

The author overdid it a little. That said, we would add the "n" in plural, so "Englishwomen" would be "Engländerinnen" in German.

[D'Artagnan 173]

Depressingly, you have summed up in eight words what I took about 1,000 to do!

 

Tbf there are posters like yourself, BB54 or AMMS who have been calling for this sort of attitude for years, but I just couldn't get past the hate engendered during our agonies. But there's no alternative, when you look at it in the cold light of day.

 

As per usual an excellent and enjoyable read Andy.

 

I think we can only move past the hate when there is a modicum of restorative justice applied. Sadly I see no signs of it.

[andy steel 0]

Yes They started in Canada from the Bandidos club I believe and now have grown to other countries. It was seven members who refused to run from the Hells angels and were killed. That gave the name of No Surrender. They are always fighting with the Hells Angels.

 

Wow. It's amazing how often our fan slogans turn up in other contexts. At least that one is less horrifying than the Union Flag with 'We are the People' on it belonging to the EDL in this funny-as-anything report. Watch out for the winners and losers in the 'Most Nonchalent Man In a Riot' contest and the 'angry serf army defending a castle made of shit'.

 

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/edl-fascists-antifa-police-lgbt-bristol-gay-pride

[andy steel 0]

Another outstanding piece of writing. Utterly outstanding. I may pick up on a few things after I get back from work, but for the time being I shall merely observe that your somewhat rosy view of the German language is almost certainly the result of never having studied it.

 

I highly recommend Mark Twain's views on the subject: http://german.about.com/library/blmtwain01.htm

 

Fabulous link, what a riot.

 

I suppose if you wanted to master German via a teacher or textbook you would soon find your memory heavily taxed. But the best way is just to go there and either learn or starve, without worrying about Dative or Nominative too much. I had enough of that when I was doing Anglo-Saxon. Hwaet!

[andy steel 0]

Great piece Andy - superb.

I'm in complete agreement but in my moments of browsing through other less cerebral forums (on both sided of the divide) I seriously doubt if ditching the mutual baggage is an option in the foreseeable future.

It takes two to Schuhplattler, and I don't see anyone rushing up to the dance floor.

 

Well, then, I think those of us who hold a more progressive attitude are duty bound to try to persuade the angrier fan that the only way is dialogue. And as the years go by without the baggage carousel showing any signs of becoming empty, I start to think we might have to make a choice between enforcing this attitude or watch the club die. Not much of a choice!

 

I think we can only move past the hate when there is a modicum of restorative justice applied. Sadly I see no signs of it.

 

Chicken and egg, isn't it? Perhaps we will only see some restorative justice when we adopt a more engaging approach. Or, the only way to avoid the swinging lynch mob mentality is to be more involved with the mob, so to speak. Certainly there are no easy answers, but building a castle and hoping we can lay waste to the footballing countryside without stepping outside it seems overly-optimistic.

Edited November 23, 2013 by andy steel

[D'Artagnan 173]

Chicken and egg, isn't it? Perhaps we will only see some restorative justice when we adopt a more engaging approach. Or, the only way to avoid the swinging lynch mob mentality is to be more involved with the mob, so to speak. Certainly there are no easy answers, but building a castle and hoping we can lay waste to the footballing countryside without stepping outside it seems overly-optimistic.

 

Yes the term "splendid isolation" springs to mind.

 

For me the book "Follow we will" was something of a watershed. Seeing the injustices meted out on our club in such a succinct and informative manner - gave me a whole new aspect to that "hatred" - I now view it as more of a righteous indignation - and one which requires to be satisfied before we can return to any sort of normality.

[Zappa 0]

Thanks Andy. Another great read which is now published - http://www.gersnet.co.uk/index.php/latest-news/194-enemies

[The Real PapaBear 0]

having read the piece for a second time Andy, I have to say that although I enjoyed it even more at the second time of reading, a couple of things strike me as worth questioning.

 

1) You mention the wonderfully named lyotard but fail to pay homage to the just as splendidly named "Foucault" How can this be? If ever a name was ripe for the mocking….yet you let it go?

2) The Nazis , although they did have their faults, did not tolerate shoddy PR. They certainly didn't suffer from the same bad press that we do. We have been unfairly mistreated and maligned whilst they, and I don't want to be harsh, but they got no more than they deserved.

3) I agree entirely with the assertion that "understanding can only occur when there is a 'fusion of horizons'", however I disagree with the conclusion that you draw from that, which seems to be that it is we who should make the first moves of rapprochement towards the rest of Scottish football, henceforth referred to as They.

 

They, as far as I can see, have made not the slightest acknowledgement of the kangaroo court justice and downright illegality that was imposed upon us; They have not the slightest awareness that they have done anything wrong at all, whereas they are happy to hold our club accountable for the actions of the criminal who was in charge of us for a few months. A position he was allowed to adopt due to their inability to follow their own rules amongst other things.

 

I can't help but agree with d'Art when he calls for restorative justice, (although a Truth and Reconciliation Committee may be more what we need) and your reply to him kinda glosses over the fact they They have shown no inclination to accept any wrongdoing on their part. How can we, in those circumstances, even begin to talk to them? Until such time as They accept the wrongs that were done to us, there can never be any settlement, resolution or moving on.

 

Agree almost entirely with the rest of what you wrote, though - and the tale of nazi Germany shows what can happen when a proud people feel they have been wronged. I'm not suggesting we're about to invade Poland (which would be pretty pointless since most of Poland is over here now, anyway) but unless a perceived wrong is properly addressed then no good can come of it.

 

Peace at any price is not an option. Better to give up following football altogether.

[andy steel 0]

Many thanks for the kind words.

 

I have ploughed through 'Discipline & Punish' and had a stab at 'The Birth of the Clinic' but, just as I prefer the German language, I prefer the German sociologist.

 

I was a bit unhappy with bringing in Adolf & his goose-stepping chums, Godwin's Law and all that, and it's hardly the most apposite analogy. But the worry I have nagging at the back of my head is that there is now the actual WW2 and a media WW2 - rather than the constant flow of programmes about it acting as a 'warning from history' it seems to be acting as little more than a titillating ratings grabber of ever decreasing taste. And if something as vital as the way humanity treats itself can be reduced to nothing more than a marketing exercise, well, there's no reason why a football club on the edge of Europe can't disappear.

 

Certainly a period of introspection is and was inevitable given what happened but it won't do as a long term strategy, whether any or all of our grievances have been addressed or not. 'They' have made it crystal clear that they won't be doing any apologising any time soon, so our options are limited to either choking it off and trying another strategy or, as you say, giving up entirely. It's either try to influence the horizons or chug along as we are, allowing celtc to define the game from top to bottom.

 

I appreciate the distaste for compromise with haters but the alternative is to let 'them' dominate us for the foreseeable future, which is likely to be even worse! Realism is going to have to inflect our idealism on this subject or else the chances are we'll die off as a force - an honourable death maybe, but a death neverethless!

Edited November 24, 2013 by andy steel