barca72 440 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 You used the term 'nose-in-the-air' earlier. This is like Rangers-haters using 'sectarian' and other derogatory terms to describe us. It displays more about them, and in this case, you, than about those they take issue with. Perhaps this is where the problem really lies. The Orange movement does not encompass to any great degree the broad spectrum of the Protestant community. It represents what we might call the blue collar Protestant community, or at least a part of it, and has limited appeal elsewhere. It cannot reach out and embrace Protestants from the white collar part of the community in any great numbers, perhaps because it perceives a 'nose in the air' attitude to be distasteful, or maybe because the organisation itself is too flawed, too parochial and too entrenched. The Orange movement may well have had to deal with unfairness and finger-pointing over the years, but has it reacted in a way that sees it winning the argument? Few would say so. Its marching presence brings embarrassment to the very community it purports to represent - because it represents only a strand of the Protestant community and seems to alienate the rest. When its defenders use terms like 'nose in the air', it's maybe not too difficult to see why. To reiterate the earlier point, it would be utter madness to highlight in any way the Orange movement or Rangers in this NO campaign. Most Rangers fans can grasp this and I would hope that members of the Orange movement can grasp it, too. Two points and then I'm done. A) The OO has not asked the NO campaign to highlight the OO or its parade in any official capacity. So, you can hold your indignation on that point. b) There has been more than one poster start to complain about politics and sport getting mixed up. In lieu of recent events, I think we should heed the advice and end this discussion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hildy 0 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Two points and then I'm done.A) The OO has not asked the NO campaign to highlight the OO or its parade in any official capacity. So, you can hold your indignation on that point. b) There has been more than one poster start to complain about politics and sport getting mixed up. In lieu of recent events, I think we should heed the advice and end this discussion. Okay. We'll leave it for another day. Enjoy the football. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
der Berliner 3,290 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 lets keep politics out of sport Indeed. Hence my suggestion that this chap had next to nothing to do with the current politics. To whom would he have raised this flag if his intention was to upset the terrorist-minded? It is IMHO rather simplistic to simply go down this or a political route either and ignore that we have played in Israel a dozen or so times "in Europe" and might have found some fans down there too. At the end of the day, only this chap will know the answer. + + + And while I am at it, it is rather inappropriate to link the Israeli attacks on the Palestinain terrorists to what the Nazis did during WW II or what is labelled genocide. It is not the Israelis who have it written on their standards that any Palestinian has to be erased from the surface of this planet. These two people wage a war against one another and war is never anything else but ugly. There is no use whatsoever trying to paint the Israeli approach uglier than that of the Hamas et al. Who bombed bus full of Israelis? or have a look at Palestinian political violence and try to come up with a solution the Israelis might use instead of what they are doing. Does anyone really believe that they actually like or actively bombing hospitals or killing civilians? I hope not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinstein 294 Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 There are many clubs linked to political causes. Them and the IRA, Real Madrid and Franco, various Italian sides with who knows what, and in the past all the Red Star teams linked to the armies of the Soviet block. I think it's nonsense for Uefa to try stop it. What I wonder about is what Israel has to do with us !......and it's not just some wee guy with a flag. The banner I saw draped from the upper Govan was enormous. and as for "it's none of my business what flags people bring to the game because our ancestors fought for freedom, democracy and mom's apple pie"........well what if I brought an Irish tricolour to the game to show my support for John Daly.....I'm sure that would go down well ! Anything that affects our club IS my business. I don't want us to be associated with what's happening in the middle east..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangersitis 0 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 There are many clubs linked to political causes. Them and the IRA, Real Madrid and Franco, various Italian sides with who knows what, and in the past all the Red Star teams linked to the armies of the Soviet block. I think it's nonsense for Uefa to try stop it. What I wonder about is what Israel has to do with us !......and it's not just some wee guy with a flag. The banner I saw draped from the upper Govan was enormous. and as for "it's none of my business what flags people bring to the game because our ancestors fought for freedom, democracy and mom's apple pie"........well what if I brought an Irish tricolour to the game to show my support for John Daly.....I'm sure that would go down well ! Anything that affects our club IS my business. I don't want us to be associated with what's happening in the middle east..... You don't even know if it is connected to what is going on in the Middle East, so until you do, it could be that you are the one bringing politics into sport. If you had called for a ban on all flags, then fair enough, but you're not. Should you not also be calling for the UJ be removed from Ibrox due to what is happening further East in Afghanistan? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrahimHemdani 1 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I am very uncomfortable with the politicising of football in general and our Club in particular, whether it be in respect of national flags, the independence debate or the Orange Order. I can see the relevance of the independence debate to the Israeli situation but don't see the connection between the Orange Order and the OP. Would there be any merit in suggesting that those who wish to debate Independence or the Orange Order do so in separate threads in the Lounge? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangersitis 0 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I am very uncomfortable with the politicising of football in general and our Club in particular, whether it be in respect of national flags, the independence debate or the Orange Order. I can see the relevance of the independence debate to the Israeli situation but don't see the connection between the Orange Order and the OP. Would there be any merit in suggesting that those who wish to debate Independence or the Orange Order do so in separate threads in the Lounge? Don't you think that it's a bit late for that? Rangers have been involved in politics for more than one hundred years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real PapaBear 0 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Indeed. Hence my suggestion that this chap had next to nothing to do with the current politics. To whom would he have raised this flag if his intention was to upset the terrorist-minded? It is IMHO rather simplistic to simply go down this or a political route either and ignore that we have played in Israel a dozen or so times "in Europe" and might have found some fans down there too. At the end of the day, only this chap will know the answer. + + + And while I am at it, it is rather inappropriate to link the Israeli attacks on the Palestinain terrorists to what the Nazis did during WW II or what is labelled genocide. It is not the Israelis who have it written on their standards that any Palestinian has to be erased from the surface of this planet. These two people wage a war against one another and war is never anything else but ugly. There is no use whatsoever trying to paint the Israeli approach uglier than that of the Hamas et al. Who bombed bus full of Israelis? or have a look at Palestinian political violence and try to come up with a solution the Israelis might use instead of what they are doing. Does anyone really believe that they actually like or actively bombing hospitals or killing civilians? I hope not. Where to start with this? First of all, the Israeli attacks were on the civilian population, not on "terrorists" so the terrorists here are the zionists. (if you seriously think that they were attacking Hamas with a civilian death toll of 80%+ then either you haven't been watching the news or you are clinically insane) I don't know how much WW2 history you studied in the DDR, but I suggest you have a look at the history of the Warsaw Ghetto, where you will find that Israeli actions mirror those of the nazis very closely; lock a group that you consider inferior into a confined space, starve them and then bomb the hell out of them when it suits. And by the way, the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto also built tunnels to get supplies. You might also have a look at the history of occupied France and think about whether the Maquis were 'terrorists' or freedom fighters. The nazis certainly described them as terrorists just as the Israelis call Hamas terrorists. Another thing the Israelis have learned from the original nazis is the concept of collective punishment. Again, have a read about Oradour sur Glane or Lidice and tell me how these differed from the Israeli annihilation of Shaja'ia. The two people are waging a war against one another but only one of the two started the war and only one of the two is illegally occupying the other. There can be no meaningful description of Palestinian fighters as terrorists as long as they are being subjugated and occupied. Unlike the Irish Republicans, who always had the option of the ballot box and political discourse at any time, the Palestinians have no such option. Finally, your links are, quite frankly, deperate. First, there is no evidence at all that Hamas or any Palestinians were involved in the bus bombing in Bulgaria. Second, the solution to the problem is very simple and requires only two things to happen to result in permanent peace; a)Israel to obey international law and retreat to the 1967 borders and b) Israel to start talking seriously about peace. The Palestinians of Fatah have agreed to every demand and made every concession the Israelis said they wanted (don't take my word for it, check the Wikileaks and the Palestine Papers) and Hamas have said they will accept the existance of Israel and will offer a truce as long as Israel starts obeying international law. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrahimHemdani 1 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Don't you think that it's a bit late for that? Rangers have been involved in politics for more than one hundred years. Not sure if it's a 100 years but it doesn't make me any more comfortable about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrahimHemdani 1 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 To dB & TRPB. With respect there's a thread for those comments is there not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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