Keith Jackson: Fan rage over Rangers EBTs is understandable...

[ian1964 10,448]

If they do come after our titles they better be prepared for one almighty scrap, The Bears are in the mood for a fight, we'll pull the whole fecking structure down around their heads. Armageddon will look look a Disney theme park compared to what's left after this.

 

We saw how the cabal/SFA bottled it when they were dealing with us at the start of our troubles,when they allowed the fans of other clubs decide to vote us down the leagues,no care for Scottish football,just as long as Rangers get a pounding!.

[Tannochsidebear 2,320]

Thought big tommo and wee stuarty put them in their place on sportscene last night

 

Can you expand for those of us who will never watch Sportscene ever again please?

[RANGERRAB 3,299]

' BDO went into that hearing believing a defeat was likely to carry a liability of between £5m and £10m'

 

if that is true then it is a game changer...........

[Bruno55 0]

Can you expand for those of us who will never watch Sportscene ever again please?

 

Tommo said the titles were won on the park even O'Neill said it and stuarty agreed. Do you change the telly when sports direct ads come on? Lol

[ascender 352]

I don't get this. We'd still have signed those players regardless of how Murray proposed to pay their wages. He just opted for the most tax efficient way possible as advised by his accountants. If it wasn't the EBT scheme it would have been another way which may have cost the club more money, it may not have.

[calscot 0]

The debate about what we could have afforded is just total supposition. Supposing we didn't use EBTs but signed the same players, it's obvious that we could have done the same but acquired more debt. However, we could also have cut back elsewhere.

 

The more you look at the EBTs the shortfall we would have had shrinks. I don't know where the payments to Murray come in as he said he worked for us for free, so perhaps that's an MIH liability. Then there's the 500k annual fee to administer the EBTs which would not have to be paid. Taking all that into account it's hard to give a figure but to me looks like we might have had to make cuts of something like 1.2m a year to be in the same financial position.

 

Now over the 10 years those cuts could have gone into many places - perhaps the training ground, the stadium, the youth system, the standard of hotel, the jumbotrons etc, etc. Perhaps we would have been in a position where changing the name of the stadium would have been a more attractive proposition. Perhaps we just wouldn't have paid for some of the duds who hardly played. But when you look at the butterfly effect it's hard to say whether any of that would have made us less or just as likely more successful on the pitch. We could have cut a lot and it would have had no impact at all.

 

If they really want to do this, they have to start looking at all clubs, especially as it seems for Rangers that the question of legitimacy of the tax avoidance seems to be irrelevant to the fervour to strip our titles. In that case we need to punish all tax avoidance schemes, soft loans, favourable land deals, CVAs, etc, etc. There are clubs that may not have any trophies to strip but shouldn't they be relegated? Celtic were guilty of the heinous crime of the EBT kind and so surely deserve relegation for that? As well as their many other crimes.

 

There is also the Penn State precident - and perhaps Celtic had players from their youth system that they "would not otherwise have acquired", if it was known that they were employing a sex offender. In fact how many senior players would be put off by them shamelessly employing such a person had it not been covered up?

 

A lot of people are reticent to talk about that sensitive part of Celtic's history as some kind of respect to the victims, but it seems to me that continually brushing it under the carpet does no victim of that crime any justice. However, when we are made out to be the biggest villains in sporting history, that one really sticks in my craw.

 

This is a club that have supported Hitler and terrorists, cheated their way to many a title including the our UEFA final season, tacitly admit they are cheats over the EBT thing, pressurise referees so much that they went on strike for the only time in history, immorally subverted a democratic vote about whether we should be allowed to stay in the SPL, uses any loophole to progress in Europe, and their crime list goes on and on.

[Bearman 9]

 

 

.....A lot of people are reticent to talk about that sensitive part of Celtic's history as some kind of respect to the victims, but it seems to me that continually brushing it under the carpet does no victim of that crime any justice. However, when we are made out to be the biggest villains in sporting history, that one really sticks in my craw.

 

This is a club that have supported Hitler and terrorists, cheated their way to many a title including the our UEFA final season, tacitly admit they are cheats over the EBT thing, pressurise referees so much that they went on strike for the only time in history, immorally subverted a democratic vote about whether we should be allowed to stay in the SPL, uses any loophole to progress in Europe, and their crime list goes on and on.

 

...and yet it's Rangers FC, the most successful, who are made out to be the despicable ones of Scottish Football.

[der Berliner 3,286]

But it only comes into play if BDO do not appeal against last week’s decision and take the matter to the Supreme Court. And, with so much at stake for their creditors, that seems highly unlikely. HMRC, being heavily conflicted, could be excluded from any vote and rendered unable to block it.

 

Also, there are certain details of huge significance which remain unclear from last week’s ruling and they may also determine BDO’s next move.

 

For starters, there has been no clarity given as to the current status and estimated size of the full EBT bill. At the outset of this process that total sat at around the £50m mark but before last week’s ruling it had been scaled down to a far more manageable number. In fact, BDO went into that hearing believing a defeat was likely to carry a liability of between £5m and £10m.

 

What remains unclear is whether or not this latest decision supersedes and unwinds the previous judgments which whittled the original figure down. Or if the greatly reduced number still stands.

 

This could be a key issue for BDO in determining whether or not to settle up now or to carry on the fight to the final court of appeal.

 

They have already recouped more than £26m for the creditors’ pot. With more lawsuits in the pipeline it is entirely possible that, at a conservative estimate, that figure could double in size. In that context, a £5m settlement with the taxman might seem affordable. A £50m loss, on the other hand, wipes them clean out.

 

As Jackson only listed but not expanded on it, anyone willing or able to explain how this change in liability might have come about, if it indeed has?

 

On another sidenote, as noted in the other thread, the EBTs in used estimated to about 45m. Now, I don't know, but how do you end up with a tax bill that is equal to this amount? I mean, I would understand if they charge you - even retrospectly - the normal tax fee (how many %?). Fair enough. As you did it all under legal means, putting a penalty/fine on it, would start stretching it, as you - by common sense - can't be penalized for a thing that was at the time legal and you had no knowledge of any wrongdoing and thus nothing that can be held against you (e.g. not paying it "on time" ... or something else that deserves a penalty)?

Edited November 9, 2015 by der Berliner

[ian1964 10,448]

We were here before you and we welcomed you from far,

there's nothing you can do to stem the tide.

So Celtic when you get to feeling bigger than you are,

Remember who we are and remember how we died.

 

We come from every country and from every walk of life,

We sing in praise of Rangers in times of doubt and strife.

We maintain our love of duty, of truth and honour blest.

And thats the reason, Celtic, why you're always second best.

 

We died in Flanders poppies red, who will forget that scene,

We were murdered foul in South Armagh fighting for our Queen.

We also died in peaceful times as we have oft times seen

As we follow followed Rangers on the steps of stair 13.

 

Men like big Jock Wallace, Willie Thornton, Waddell too,

Men like Shearer and slim Jim, proud to wear the blue.

They're always our reminder, as we parry every blow,

that we're living in a world of truth that you will never know.

 

We've had our share of tears and joy, we've had our share of pain,

As we wept our tears for those gone on who we'll never see again.

but as our ranks are thinned by death, this we will maintain,

they'll be honoured on the football field, for we'll still play the game.

 

Are you listening, Glasgow Celtic, as you chant your songs of shame,

How you're the only innocents, the others are to blame.

how singing IRA songs is just a song in jest

of childrens lives and soldiers wives, thats why you're second best.

 

So think on these things, Celtic, on every word and letter.

Do your lying tongues and poison minds make you feel much better.

We're the Glasgow Rangers, still meeting every test.

You're the Glasgow Celtic, and you're still second best.

AMEN

[RANGERRAB 3,299]

Going back to the original post am I missing something in all of this?

 

As a tax avoidance scheme run between 2001-10 tax wasn't paid nor did HMRC ask for it until mid 2010. Since then it has been appealed via both the FTTT & UTTT and not paid because of this. And, of course, HMRC lost these appeals. Now three old duffers masquerading as judges with little or no knowledge of tax have found in favour of HMRC based on something called 'common sense' instead of deciding whether tax laws were broken or not.

But if the tax bill is as low as Jackson suggests then BDO will pay that bill( providing they dont appeal).Especially if Whyte's convicted and D&P have to cough up like CB did and the creditors pot increases even more.

Edited November 9, 2015 by RANGERRAB