craig 5,199 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 But that's exactly what I saw, the u-20s playing exactly the Warburton way. I can't see how any coach could get the u-20's playing more cavalier, passing, attacking football than Durrant had them doing. Maybe someone can do it better, fair enough. But when you look at the u-20's, you see (I did anyway) a team playing identically to the 1st team with two or three Ian Durrants moving between midfield and attack, gliding into the spaces, setting up whatisname that was on loan at Raith. I'm like John on this one, as a player Durrant was like nothing I'd ever seen before or have since tbh. Even if he could pass on 1% of how he played we'd still be up on the deal. I think it is easy, very easy, to get them playing that same way. It isn't the style of football that is the driver at the U20 level though - it is the development that counts. Durrant may have had them playing the way that MW wants them to play but that is easy enough to do. But what MW would be looking for is development from those in that system to be ready for the step up to the 1st team. I'm not saying that they weren't and we also have to be fair to Durrant too in that he lost a number of the kids who would have been guaranteed starters in the 20's through loans - players like Hardie, Murdoch, McCrorie, Thompson and even Crawford - that is half a team right there. What MW would most definitely have been doing is watching the video from the training sessions of the 20's to see what intensity and quality was on display (every U20 training session is now video recorded by the video analysis guy so that MW can see the players who aren't involved at 1st team level during his own training session). I'm disappointed too as Durranty was my original hero. An absolutely terrific talent, the best Scotland had produced in many a year. I would have liked for us to at least have found another role for him at the Club - he is clearly a decent enough coach and it would have been nice to even see him with the slightly younger players, ones who would immediately look up to, pay respect to and listen to every word (though we may be getting to that generation whereby they don't know who Durrant is...) 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 450k a year PLUS bonuses Sign me up To be fair to Durrant it isn't his fault what those idiots put in front of him to sign - if I were him I would have snatched it up too. That is literally insane - that is 9k a week or the equivalent of AT LEAST one 1st team player. For a development coach who, until this year, didn't even need to concern himself about developing them because his 1st team manager would rather go with experience over youth anyway. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMc 2,480 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Durrant didn't decide his salary, someone else is to blame for that. If he was offered a new contract on a lower salary and refused it that's one thing, if he was simply not offered a new contract that's quite different. Is it Warburton that makes decisions on youth coaches then? Is that his remit too? As has been said above who knows what goes on behind the scenes, I just hope he was treated with some respect. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Durrant didn't decide his salary, someone else is to blame for that. If he was offered a new contract on a lower salary and refused it that's one thing, if he was simply not offered a new contract that's quite different. Is it Warburton that makes decisions on youth coaches then? Is that his remit too? As has been said above who knows what goes on behind the scenes, I just hope he was treated with some respect. I don't think that the U20's are considered youth coaches. That is considered adult. The youth coaching roles, I believe, are decided by Craig Mulholland - but there is also a technical group which is made up of Warburton, Mulholland, Weir, McParland, Stewart and they discuss things across all levels of the club including the Academy. So I would imagine that if Durrant was being let go at the U20's the technical group would have discussed whether they would like him to remain with, for example, the 17's, he would be a perfect link between youth and senior, especially as many 17's were playing for the 20's anyway. That is if they felt he brought to the table what they needed. I agree - for me Ian Durrant is very much one of our own. You could see even in his training sessions how passionate he is about the game and the kids that he was working with. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
limeburner 0 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Durrant didn't decide his salary, someone else is to blame for that. If he was offered a new contract on a lower salary and refused it that's one thing, if he was simply not offered a new contract that's quite different. Is it Warburton that makes decisions on youth coaches then? Is that his remit too? As has been said above who knows what goes on behind the scenes, I just hope he was treated with some respect. IMO,it doesnt matter who made this decision,£9,000 per week for an u20 coach is madness FWIW,i think MW made the decision. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchorman 0 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Does anyone know if Billy McLaren is still there? 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Does anyone know if Billy McLaren is still there? No idea, but not someone I have met on my visits to Auchenhowie 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calscot 0 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) For a development coach who, until this year, didn't even need to concern himself about developing them because his 1st team manager would rather go with experience over youth anyway. As usual, not defending McCoist at all per se, but when people really twist reality it's time to debunk. If we attack the Celtic minded for it, we shouldn't be doing it ourselves. The stats show that more academy players were picked per match by McCoist than Warburton - and he didn't exactly get McKay from the U20's, and McCoist played him more at a younger age, so being generous. I'm not sure if you will to count all these but feel free to exclude players if you give a good reason. I've removed MacGregor as he was pretty established... I haven't counted McCoist's half season as that would mean more than a quick cut and paste to a spreadsheet but I also think 3 out of 3 and half seasons give reasonable representation. The first figure is the number of starts and the second is total appearances in competitive games for the season - taken from Wikipedia to give the provenance. Feel free to check. 2011-2012 [TABLE=width: 192] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, width: 64]John Fleck[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]1[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]5[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, width: 64]Jordan McMillan[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]1[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]3[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, width: 64]Jamie Ness[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]3[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]5[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64]Gregg Wylde[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]15[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]25[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64]Ross Perry[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]8[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]13[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, width: 64]Thomas Kind Bendiksen[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]1[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]3[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64]Andrew Little[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]6[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]11[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, width: 64]Kane Hemmings[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64][/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]5[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64]Andrew Mitchell[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]1[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]2[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, width: 64]Rhys McCabe[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]8[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]9[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64]Barrie McKay[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64][/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD=align: right]44[/TD] [TD=align: right]82[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] 2012-2013 [TABLE=width: 192] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, width: 64]Darren Cole[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]1[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]4[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl69, width: 64]Chris Hegarty[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]28[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]29[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64]Ross Perry[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]21[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]23[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, width: 64]Luca Gasparotto[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]1[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]4[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, width: 64]Lewis Macleod[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]31[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]31[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64]Kyle Hutton[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]30[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]33[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64]Robbie Crawford[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]9[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]27[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, width: 64]Tom Walsh[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]0[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64]Andy Murdoch[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]0[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, width: 64]Andrew Mitchell[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]4[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]7[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64]Fraser Aird[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]11[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]22[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, width: 64]Barrie McKay[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]20[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]41[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl69, width: 64]Danny Stoney[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64][/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]3[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, width: 64]Andrew Little[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]34[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]36[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64]Kal Naismith[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]5[/TD] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64, align: right]24[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl68, width: 64]Kane Hemmings[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]2[/TD] [TD=class: xl67, width: 64, align: right]5[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD=align: right]197[/TD] [TD=align: right]291[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] 2013-2014 [TABLE=width: 192] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Scott Gallacher[/TD] [TD=width: 64, align: right]6[/TD] [TD=width: 64, align: right]6[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64]Luca Gasparotto[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64]Chris Hegarty[/TD] [TD=align: right]2[/TD] [TD=align: right]2[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64]Kyle McAusland[/TD] [TD=align: right]4[/TD] [TD=align: right]7[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Ross Perry[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Fraser Aird[/TD] [TD=align: right]27[/TD] [TD=align: right]37[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Robbie Crawford[/TD] [TD=align: right]10[/TD] [TD=align: right]25[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Kyle Hutton[/TD] [TD=align: right]5[/TD] [TD=align: right]13[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Lewis Macleod[/TD] [TD=align: right]22[/TD] [TD=align: right]24[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Andrew Mitchell[/TD] [TD=align: right]1[/TD] [TD=align: right]1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Andy Murdoch[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Charlie Telfer[/TD] [TD=align: right]0[/TD] [TD=align: right]1[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Calum Gallagher[/TD] [TD=align: right]2[/TD] [TD=align: right]6[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Andrew Little[/TD] [TD=align: right]17[/TD] [TD=align: right]29[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD=align: right]96[/TD] [TD=align: right]152[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] 2015-2016 [TABLE=width: 192] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Fraser Aird[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64, align: right]1[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64, align: right]4[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Liam Burt[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64, align: right]0[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64, align: right]2[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Barrie McKay[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64, align: right]44[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64, align: right]47[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Ryan Hardie[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64, align: right]0[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64, align: right]4[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=class: xl65, width: 64]Tom Walsh[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64, align: right]2[/TD] [TD=class: xl66, width: 64, align: right]2[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD=align: right]47[/TD] [TD=align: right]59[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] It's not been a good year for the academy under Warburton but maybe we didn't have good enough players due to Sinclair, I don't know, but it's just wrong to say we play more from there now. BTW I know there are a couple who will just give stupid, snidy comments, I'm looking for intelligent debate only, otherwise, with respect, please ignore. Edited June 11, 2016 by Rousseau 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 No surprise you jump in on that one cal. Are you suggesting that McCoist didn't prefer experience over youth, even if the experienced players were playing poorly ? Sinclair is a red herring because he was there throughout the McCoist reign so both McCoist and Warburton have had to deal with the same crap that Sinclair served up (how he was employed as long is beyond me. Mulholland is far, far superior). The most meaningful comparison, as far as I can tell, would be McCoist's 1st year in charge and that of Warburton's 1st year. If you look at the 2011/12 season and the 2015/16 season and they have been fairly similar. However, the 2015/16 season is skewed because of McKay being a revelation. Your 2015/16 numbers don't include Jordan Thompson as well as Dom Ball, Nathan Oduwa or Gedion Zelalem - who, whether they were our players or not, are considered youths and prove, without doubt in my mind at least, that Warburton not only is prepared to give youth a chance but actually looked to bring youth in and to also play them. In that first season the appearances were spread around more, would that not suggest that McCoist didn't really have faith in the players to give them a run of games ? It is fairly interesting that there were a fair amount more who got an opportunity under McCoist in that 1st season. However, would it also not be fair to counter that by saying that Warburton had a number who he sent out on loan to get 1st team experience because he wasn't quite ready to trust them in the team but wants to retain them to receive his coaching, guidance and a season to see how they perform in more physical leagues. I think we need to see what chance the youth get from Warburton once his philosophy throughout the club has been fully installed. Please note the use of the words.... The previous manager PREFERRED to use experience over youth. I didn't say that McCoist didn't give youth a chance, but I'm not sure that we can legitimately say that he didn't prefer experience over youth. Debatable though, certainly. I am sure you could say the same with Warburton - however, the point being made was that there wasn't necessarily a great incentive for Durrant to bring youths through from youth to 1st team because Ally preferred to use experienced players - I think he proved that in his tenure. I also think that Warburton has shown that he wants to give youth a chance by signing the likes of Ball and Zelalem on loan and giving them ample game time. But this isn't about Warburton, although I can see the need to use him as a comparative mechanism. Any further response will be delayed - I have to get some work done today and have date night with the Mrs tonight 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calscot 0 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) You just can't admit when you're obviously wrong, can you? Slicing, dicing, twisting things, including irrelevances (loan players), stating supposition as fact, ignoring stuff that disagrees with you. Maybe one day... It just shows that your dislike of someone really stops you seeing any sense... I await the time you show some balance and consistency. My main point is that when the facts are overwhelmingly against you, maybe it's time to hold back the snarky comments about former club employees. Edited June 10, 2016 by calscot 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.