Scottish teams in Europe

[pete 2,499]

How have Scottish clubs fared against English opposition?

Friday 27 July 2018

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Burnley are facing Aberdeen in the UEFA Europa League with English sides very much in the ascendancy against Scottish rivals.

 

 

Unfortunately for those of an Aberdeen persuasion, the recent history of club matches between English and Scottish teams makes grim reading for devotees north of the border. Scotland's representatives are without a win in their last 13 encounters with English clubs (D7 L6) since Shunsuke Nakamura's goal at Parkhead earned Celtic a 1-0 victory against Manchester United in the 2006/07 UEFA Champions League group stage.

However, the overall statistics in the 49 UEFA games between the neighbours' clubs are not quite so dispiriting. The English sides have had the better of them (W18 D18 L13) but it is only in the last decade that a gulf in class has opened up. Had history stopped on the night of Nakamura's goal, the Scots would have had the better record: 13 wins to England's 12.

 

Shunsuke Nakamura after his 2006 winner against United©Getty Images

That recent English streak has also tilted the balance in terms of Scottish clubs' home record against English counterparts: in 25 matches, the Scots' home record is now W8 D8 L9, with Scottish sides on a seven-game winless streak on their own patch – the worst-ever run.

Scottish supporters may tie that trend to the rise of the English Premier League and the number of top-class foreign players drawn to clubs south of the border, but – perhaps ironically – all the Scottish clubs' goals in their three most recent successes against English teams came from foreigners (two Englishmen, a Welshman, a Swede and a Japanese in Nakamura).

 

Rangers golden boy Ally McCoist in his Ibrox heyday©Getty Images

The last Scotsman to score in a victory against English opposition in UEFA competition was Ally McCoist, author of Rangers' second in their 2-1 triumph against Leeds United in the 1992/93 UEFA Champions League second round.

While Burnley have never faced Scottish opposition in European competition, Aberdeen have met English sides on six previous occasions: following the first leg against Burnley, the Pittodrie club's record reads W1 D3 L3, that sole victory a 3-1 triumph against Ipswich Town in the 1981/82 UEFA Cup first round when a certain Sir Alex Ferguson was in charge of the Scottish side.

 

Dundee United's Paul Sturrock lets fly against United©Getty Images

Every UEFA competition game between English and Scottish clubs*

Rangers 2-0 Wolves, 1960/61 Cup Winners' Cup semi-finals
Wolves 1-1 Rangers, 1960/61 Cup Winners' Cup semi-finals
Tottenham 5-2 Rangers, 1962/63 Cup Winners' Cup first round
Rangers 2-3 Tottenham, 1962/63 Cup Winners' Cup first round
Celtic 1-0 Liverpool, 1965/66 Cup Winners' Cup semi-finals
Liverpool 2-0 Celtic, 1965/66 Cup Winners' Cup semi-finals
Dunfermline 0-0 West Brom, 1969/70 Cup Winners' Cup quarter-finals
West Brom 0-1 Dunfermline, 1969/70 Cup Winners' Cup quarter-finals
Leeds 0-1 Celtic, 1970/71 European Cup semi-finals
Celtic 2-1 Leeds, 1970/71 European Cup semi-finals
Aberdeen 1-1 Tottenham, 1973/74 UEFA Cup second round
Tottenham 4-1 Aberdeen, 1973/74 UEFA Cup second round
Leeds 0-0 Hibernian, 1973/74 UEFA Cup second round
Hibernian 0-0 Leeds, 1973/74 UEFA Cup second round
Hibernian 1-0 Liverpool, 1975/76 UEFA Cup first round
Liverpool 3-1 Hibernian, 1975/76 UEFA Cup first round
Aberdeen 0-1 Liverpool, 1980/81 European Cup first round
Liverpool 3-1 Aberdeen, 1980/81 European Cup first round
Ipswich 1-1 Aberdeen, 1981/82 UEFA Cup first round
Aberdeen 3-1 Ipswich, 1981/82 UEFA Cup first round
Nottingham Forest 0-0 Celtic, 1983/84 UEFA Cup third round
Celtic 1-2 Nottingham Forest, 1983/84 UEFA Cup third round
Manchester United 2-2 Dundee United, 1984/85 UEFA Cup third round
Dundee United 2-3 Manchester United, 1984/85 UEFA Cup third round
Rangers 2-1 Leeds, 1992/93 UEFA Champions League second round
Leeds 1-2 Rangers, 1992/93 UEFA Champions League second round
Celtic 2-2 Liverpool, 1997/98 UEFA Cup first round
Liverpool 0-0 Celtic, 1997/98 UEFA Cup first round
Celtic 1-0 Blackburn, 2002/03 UEFA Cup second round
Blackburn 0-2 Celtic, 2002/03 UEFA Cup second round
Celtic 1-1 Liverpool, 2002/03 UEFA Cup quarter-finals
Liverpool 0-2 Celtic, 2002/03 UEFA Cup quarter-finals
Rangers 0-1 Manchester United, 2003/04 UEFA Champions League group stage
Manchester United 3-0 Rangers, 2003/04 UEFA Champions League group stage
Manchester United 3-2 Celtic, 2006/07 UEFA Champions League group stage
Celtic 1-0 Manchester United, 2006/07 UEFA Champions League group stage
Manchester United 3-0 Celtic, 2008/09 UEFA Champions League group stage
Celtic 1-1 Manchester United, 2008/09 UEFA Champions League group stage
Celtic 0-2 Arsenal, 2009/10 UEFA Champions League play-offs
Arsenal 3-1 Celtic, 2009/10 UEFA Champions League play-offs
Manchester United 0-0 Rangers, 2010/11 UEFA Champions League group stage
Rangers 0-1 Manchester United, 2010/11 UEFA Champions League group stage
Hearts 0-5 Tottenham, 2011/12 UEFA Europa League play-offs
Tottenham 0-0 Hearts, 2011/12 UEFA Europa League play-offs
Hearts 0-1 Liverpool, 2012/13 UEFA Europa League play-offs
Liverpool 1-1 Hearts, 2012/13 UEFA Europa League play-offs
Celtic 3-3 Manchester City, 2016/17 UEFA Champions League group stage
Manchester City 1-1 Celtic, 2016/17 UEFA Champions League group stage
Aberdeen 1-1 Burnley, 2018/19 UEFA Europa League second qualifying round first leg
Burnley v Aberdeen, 2018/19 UEFA Europa League second qualifying round second leg

 

Celtic's Brian McClair takes on Nottingham Forest©Getty Images

*NB: No games included from the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, which was not a UEFA competition

Fairs Cup meetings between the nations' clubs are as follows
Everton 1-0 Dunfermline, 1962/63 first round
Dunfermline 2-0 Everton, 1962/63 first round
Kilmarnock 0-2 Everton, 1964/65 second round
Everton 4-1 Kilmarnock, 1964/65 second round
Leeds 4-2 Kilmarnock, 1966/67 semi-finals
Kilmarnock 0-0 Leeds, 1966/67 semi-finals
Leeds 1-0 Hibernian, 1967/68 third round
Hibernian 1-1 Leeds, 1967/68 third round
Rangers 0-0 Leeds, 1967/68 quarter-finals
Leeds 2-0 Rangers, 1967/68 quarter-finals
Dundee 1-1 Leeds, 1967/68 semi-finals
Leeds 1-0 Dundee, 1967/68 semi-finals
Chelsea 5-0 Morton, 1968/69 first round
Morton 3-4 Chelsea, 1968/69 first round
Rangers 0-0 Newcastle, 1968/69 semi-finals
Newcastle 2-0 Rangers, 1968/69 semi-finals
Dundee 1-2 Newcastle, 1969/70 first round
Newcastle 1-0 Dundee, 1969/70 first round
Hibernian 0-1 Liverpool, 1970/71 third round
Liverpool 2-0 Hibernian, 1970/71 third round

© 1998-2018 UEFA. All rights reserved.

[compo 6,222]

Looking at that list of games brings back a lot of memories  .

[buster. 4,808]

Ties won

1960's

Sco:  2

Eng: 11

 

1970's

Sco: 1

Eng: 4

 

1980's

Sco: 1

Eng: 3

 

1990's

Sco: 1

Eng: 1

 

2000's

Sco: 3

Eng: 3

 

2010's

Sco: 0

Eng: 5

 

Total

Sco: 8

Eng: 27

 

 

Bottomline ratio Eng 3:1

[buster. 4,808]

If I'm reading the seedings correctly Rangers or Maribor could be drawn against Burnley or Istanbul Basaksehir

 

Below is the third round line up (not including CL drop-outs who have a seperate draw).

 

 

Pyunik Yerevan	Arm	Maccabi Tel-Aviv	Isr
Dinamo Minsk	Bls	Zenit St. Petersburg	Rus
Sturm Graz	Aut	AEK Larnaca	Cyp
Sarpsborg 08	Nor	NK Rijeka	Cro
Istanbul Basaksehir	Tur	Burnley FC	Eng
Zorya Luhansk	Ukr	Sporting Braga	Por
Hapoel Haifa	Isr	Atalanta	Ita
Racing Genk	Bel	Lech Poznan	Pol
Vitesse Arnhem	Ned	FC Basel	Sui
FC Nordsjælland	Den	Partizan Belgrade	Srb
Hibernian	Sco	Molde FK	Nor
Hajduk Split	Cro	FCSB	Rom
Sevilla	Esp	Zalgiris Vilnius	Lit
Sigma Olomouc	Cze	Kairat Almaty	Kaz
Slovan Bratislava	Svk	Rapid Wien	Aut
FC Mariupol	Ukr	Girondins Bordeaux	Fra
CSKA Sofia	Bul	FC København	Den
Olympiakos Piraeus	Gre	FC Luzern	Sui
Glasgow Rangers	Sco	NK Maribor	Slo
AS Trencín	Svk	Feyenoord	Ned
Jagiellonia Bialystok	Pol	AA Gent	Bel
Spartak Subotica	Srb	Brøndby IF	Den
FC Ufa	Rus	Progrès Niederkorn	Lux
Besiktas	Tur	LASK Linz	Aut
Apollon Limassol	Cyp	Dynamo Brest	Bls
RB Leipzig	Ger	Universitatea Craiova	Rom

Edited August 3, 2018 by buster.

[buster. 4,808]

Draw or the 4th round is on Monday.

For the draw of the 4th round the 26 teams are probably divided into 2 groups of 8 teams and 1 groups of 10 teams.

 

https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/seedel2018.html

 

The list below presumes the highest seed of the 3rd round ties will get through. eg. Maribor, who have a high enough co-ff. to be in the seeded part of 4th round draw. This means if we get through, we will already have benefitted from being seeded in 4th round draw.

 

Potential opponents in 4th round for Rangers/Maribor would come from 3rd round ties played by teams on the right hand side of graphic below. The teams listed being higher seeded than 3rd round opponents but with no  guarantee of getting through.

 

4th Qualifying Round (26 teams)

Seeded teams coef. Unseeded teams coef. ------------------------ --- ---------------- ------------------------ --- ---------------- Sevilla ** Esp 113.000 Rapid Wien *3 Aut 21.500 Zenit St. Petersburg *3 Rus 78.000 RB Leipzig ** Ger 17.000 FC Basel @2 Sui 71.000 Partizan Belgrade * Srb 17.000 Besiktas ** Tur 57.000 Burnley FC ** Eng 15.921 Olympiakos Piraeus *3 Gre 54.000 NK Rijeka *3 Cro 15.500 FC København * Den 34.000 Atalanta ** Ita 15.249 Sporting Braga *3 Por 30.500 Molde FK * Nor 12.500 FCSB ** Rom 27.500 Girondins Bordeaux ** Fra 11.283 AA Gent *3 Bel 27.000 FC Ufa ** Rus 10.676 Racing Genk ** Bel 27.000 Apollon Limassol * Cyp 10.000 NK Maribor * Slo 22.500 Sturm Graz @2 Aut 6.570 Maccabi Tel-Aviv * Isr 22.500 Spartak Subotica * Srb 3.750 Feyenoord *3 Ned 21.500 Kairat Almaty * Kaz 3.625

Edited August 3, 2018 by buster.

[Tannochsidebear 2,321]

From that list it looks like a 50/50 split between teams who should be too good for us, and teams who are no better than the Croats or Maribor and would give us a 50/50 chance of making the group stages. Looking for another kind draw on Monday to give us hope of European football throughout the autumn.

 

You would say Rapid, Leipzig, Atalanta, Bordeaux, should all be too strong, we would also start as underdogs against Belgrade, Burnley, & Ufa, but the rest we would really fancy our chances against, especially as to play them we will have to have taken care of Maribor as well, which will be a hugely difficult task.

[pete 2,499]

1 hour ago, Tannochsidebear said:

From that list it looks like a 50/50 split between teams who should be too good for us, and teams who are no better than the Croats or Maribor and would give us a 50/50 chance of making the group stages. Looking for another kind draw on Monday to give us hope of European football throughout the autumn.

 

You would say Rapid, Leipzig, Atalanta, Bordeaux, should all be too strong, we would also start as underdogs against Belgrade, Burnley, & Ufa, but the rest we would really fancy our chances against, especially as to play them we will have to have taken care of Maribor as well, which will be a hugely difficult task.

Don't be daft that is a Pisser!

[DMAA 3,603]

It looks a big ask. It would be a huge boost to the club if we got to the groups. Not just financially but psychologically, it would be a return to Rangers on the European stage and capture the imaginations of the fans for the first time in a decade. 

[Big Jaws 570]

I was confident that we'd put last years issue in the tournament to bed and navigate to this stage but anything further was more of a hope than anything else to be honest. Both Hibs and Aberdeen entered at this stage and out of the two only Hibs have progressed when I thought they both might go out. Aberdeen looked fairly robust defensively home and away but lacked the danger up front to trouble Burnley although their goal was pretty decent. The next game will be difficult for us against Maribor but its not insurmountable. Before the campaign began I would have said getting to play a 3rd or 4th game in qualifying would have been a bonus but seeing the team and how its performed has given me more confidence that we can get a result to take us to the play offs.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Big Jaws

[Gonzo79 13,764]

My pal, a Burnley ST holder, just messaged me saying the sheep support is the best away support he's ever seen or heard at Turf Moor (he's been going regularly since 1989).

 

Pfffft.  Those English fans must be awfully quiet.?