Big Spliff

Nope I am just agreeing with MF that there is no conclusive proof, for the reasons we've discussed. I can see perfectly the logic & circumstantial evidence that says UEFA did ban TBB but I can also see the gap in the paper-trail which says it can't be conclusively proved. What happened in that gap I've no idea and I'm not inclined to go there

Cheers mate, wasn't prying for numbers etc. Maybe I should check it out more often.

UEFA banned the Billy Boys? Prove it. FWIW, in light of your various posts in this thread, I agree there is no totally conclusive evidence that UEFA banned TBB so fair play to you.

A fine example of unreliable media this one eh?

Frankie, just to help my general understanding could you explain the popularity and importance of the main site please - in the context of the forum? That might seem like a strange questions but (and this might just be me), I only come into forums and link to the main site on the back something which is posted. I basically don't really use the main site(s) on any of the Rangers messageboards.

MF I admire your tenacity (and Frankie's in return) and I see and sympathise with your points completely. However you argument is flawed in one crucial respect; You are stating 'as fact' that UEFA didn't ban the Billy Boys. With respect, you don't know if it is "fundamentally untrue" (i.e. false, I presume you mean) or not. And on that basis you cannot simply state it as fact. You don't know. And neither does anyone else on this thread.

Read elsewhere he might be able to play even on Wednesday. Great news if true.

Can only be down to fitness surely? Like Mcmanus.... oh no have I got that wrong? I mean we're going to the AA and we must win the game and he calls up Gavin fooking Rae and Graham whothefooking Dorrans? Totally depressing.

I can't believe this is still going! I thought we all agreed that there was a gap in verifiable information in the transition from UEFA's first ruling which specifically mentioned TBB, to the appeal, which didn't? Nobody disputes that from what I can see. Without seeing the actual written communication from UEFA to RFC it's not possible to establish if RFC's subsequent version of it was word-for-word, who wrote it, or if it was translated/embellished or whatever. I think frankie said he had a possible avenue so for those who are interested, let's see if that comes to anything.

Hopefully KL is ok here and it's not ligaments as some people seem to suspect.

I hate the fact that I didn't go out of my way to watch the first half of the Scotland game today I never used to miss a game at Hampden.

Very well argued MF. Only one issue I have is that is NOT "plain to see" that RFC chose to ban TBB, and not UEFA. It is plausible, but not clear. As is the counter-arguement that it is perfectly plausible that UEFA did ban it. I suspect you want to find out for sure, which I think is fair enough.

MF, I totally know what you mean but given that (in frankie's timeline post, see the 2nd link http://www.uefa.com/uefa/keytopics/kind=512/newsid=413514.html ), it says this - direct from UEFA. Social problem In examining the alleged discriminatory chants, the Control & Disciplinary Body admitted that the nature of the song concerned – “Billy Boys” - related to a social problem in Scotland. The body also believed that the disciplinary decision in this case had to be taken in the context of Scotland’s social and historical background. Studied evidence After studying the evidence at hand as well as the statement of Rangers FC, the Control & Disciplinary Body conceded that supporters have been singing the song "Billy Boys" for years during national and international matches without either the Scottish football or governmental authorities being able to intervene. The result is that this song is now somehow tolerated. Now, they found us NG as a result of social context etc. but the song was specifically on their radar. It's appealed and the reverse the decision, and now we get this (from RFC as an output from the supporters meeting); UEFA have issued the Club with certain directives in order to combat sectarianism more efficiently. Firstly the Club has been ‘ordered to announce measurable targets in order to reduce sectarian behaviour amongst its supporters’. Secondly ‘to control their anti-sectarian activities by producing comprehensive statistics that are communicated to the public’. Finally ‘to make a public address announcement at every official fixture, be it international or domestic, stating that any sectarian chanting and any form of ‘Billy Boys’ songs is strictly prohibited.’ in the Assembly link http://www.rangersassembly.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=41 It is easy to see how this could have happened at the behest of UEFA, the link is obvious. However I understand the question mark over how this final specific BB sanction came to be put like that. Only someone who saw the letter from UEFA and saw the final instruction written into it could clear this up.

Got you. For some reason, the support has not been able to grasp this. There has been much debate on other forums about this. Some people say just let's move on, some say lets change the words, some say they'll never change the words. So the net result is .... well... nothing. That is until people feel pissed off, or we haven't gotten into trouble for a while so some people think it's OK to sing TBB again with the F word. The club could bring it back and encourage people to sing (for example "celtic blood"), but how the hell are they going to put that message on the big screens? Also, as Frankie says, a lot of people would just sing what they liked anyway, including the F word. i've no idea what the balance would be or what would come across on TV. In fact, if the club said anything on this, the can of worms would open up again becasue of the insistence of some people in singing the "we are Rangers, super Rangers" song .... you know the rest. Also "cheer up xyz....." ... you know the rest. Also "who's the F in the black".... you know the rest..... Even "Simply the Best" at the last OF game at Ibrox ffs - it's crazy imo. It's a total can of worms this one, it still is. It hurts my head and it hurts my heart. p.s. and that's without even touching on ra sellik's songbook

what do you mean Norris? what are you suggesting we, the support, do?

I can't speak with any authority on it means but I can have a good stab at it. If TBB was sung without the word "feni@n" nobody would give a shit. The word "feni@n" is quite clearly the "problem" and a sledgehammer has been used to crack the whole song like a proverbial nut. Now I realise that strictly speaking singing TBB even with "feni@n" being swapped for "celtic" would break UEFA's edict - however absolutely NOTHING would happen on the grounds that it could never even be claimed (even by the mopiest of mopes) that is it discriminatory or sectarian in any way. Allowing the word "feni@n" to be explained as substitutional for Roman Catholic is at the root of the issue. And there is no way of going back on that now i wouldn't imagine. P.S., not excusing it, but if you were SDM I could understand why you gave in at that stage. Can you IMAGINE the pounding he would have got if Rangers chose to fight on with it after the appeal? He would have been absolutely ruined in the press for standing up for the right of Rangers fans to shout "Feni@n", and there was no WAY he was going to take that on.

I know but we could have through other means, but must have been deemed not worth it.

The fact is, there is a UEFA ban. And it's very specific - it's the Billy Boys in any form. It sounds like the club did a good job in presenting the context to the first disciplinary hearing. But we lost it when we failed to challenge the result of the appeal on the same grounds (and very specifically that "f3nian" does not mean "Roman Catholic"). Rangers simply had no stomach for it beyond the first hearing. It's sickening, but it's too late now.

The Sun is TRASH. Don't buy it. Blatant muck-raking when the guy hasn't even kicked a ball here yet. Oh yeah. let's read his book, see what we can get. Oh look, something about play-acting an injury. Oh cool, we can link this to the Eduardo/McGeady stuff and turn this into a "story" It's pathetic.

Nothing wrong with socialism. Until socialists get involved, that is.

It's a pish story anyway - I mean, what can you say ?

Thanks for posting these again Frankie. When you look at how this transpired in the cold light of day, it absolutely stinks - in more than one place. You'll have noticed how UEFA explained in some detail their reasons for not punishing RFC at the first hearing but suddenly overturn it without a similar (or indeed any) explanation. Rangers would definitely been scratching their heads and would definitely have sought an explanation, which hasn't been published to my knowledge. However it is totally clear that the UEFA directive specifically bans TBB - which is very strange, the way it's worded and in the context of the other directives which all enable flexibility for Rangers to decide exactly how to deal with it. Very, very strange.

Yep, I know what you mean. I'm sure this ain't the end of this thread now that we're onto this

I'm sure TB will be back along to explain, but I thought he meant that what the fans were to get in return was praise from RFC for the self-policing which led to nearly everybody stopping singing TBB at matches. As you say, not much of a deal if that's the case. I assume that all the supporters reps present were convinced of the UEFA "decision" - be it a huge bluff or a stark reality. I've read that some people present say they saw the actual letter though. I'd also point out that it's a bit unfair to single out the Trust and/or FF because the meeting was attended by several fans' groups and they issued a joint statement, although I agree that FF was probably the only significant voice on-line at the time; Jim Templeton - Assembly President Alex Milree - Chairman of the Scottish Alliance Delegates Mark Dingwall - Follow Follow/ Rangers Supporters Trust James Carlin - The Blue Order Simon Leslie - The Blue Order Tam Green - Lanarkshire Supporters Representative David Edgar - Rangers Supporters Trust, Media Spokesperson Ross Blyth - Fife and District supporters club representative Malcolm McNiven - Rangers Supporters Trust, Chairman

I take your points TB, maybe I didn't interpret it quite right (and I wasn't at any previous meetings so maybe didn't see the parallels). Let's see what happens eh?