Soccer boss in sectarian sing-song

[craig 5,199]

Who said that singing songs at a football match is trying to be clever ?

 

Me thinks there is far too much over-analysing going on

[Frankie 8,198]

cal:

 

Of course I don't think it's clever and nowhere did I suggest it was. Such behaviour is often infantile and illogical. But, if I wanted to live my life like Spock then I would join Star Fleet.

 

It's just a bit of harmless fun and while I readily concede some go too far in their idea of 'banter', if we are to proscribe everything because it may occasionally offend we all may as well jump off the nearest bridge now. Just how far do you take this?

 

The fact is there is nothing wrong with the Sash and Derry's Walls. Dislike them by all means as is your right but as long as the majority are not doing so for the wrong reasons, then they equally have the same right to sing them where and when they like.

[maineflyer 0]

Can anyone tell me, what relationship Ulster or religion has to do with Rangers, it is apparent to students of the clubs formative history that the answer is none. Parties have aligned themselves with the club for their own reasons, Rangers cannot nor should they be held accountable for the actions of those who attempt to use the club for anything other than football.

Sectarianism has no place in the world never mind football, which ever form that sectarianism takes it cannot and never will be justified.

If you are trying to deny the obvious, irrefutable and undeniable link between Rangers and the loyalist community of Ulster, or between Rangers and the protestant traditions of Scotland, then you are a silly revisionist plain and simple.

 

You may not enjoy those links but to pretend they don't exist is just nonsense. You may also think they should no longer exist but that's a completely different argument. For my part, I think those links are a source of enormous pride that certain others (yourself included no doubt) would like to see used against us in an entirely disingenious manner.

 

Rangers have long been much more than a team on a park. I know that, you know that, we all know that. If folks like you would stop cringing and scraping every time a Spiers or a Keevins takes a swipe at us then there would a lot less swipes taking place. The only embarrassment I feel is embarrassment at deniers like you.

[maineflyer 0]

I must agree on the two worlds point.

 

And I'm so glad I'm not in the dark, cold one, full of anger and hatred you seem to inhabit...

 

Why is it that apologists like you always have to paint the other person's picture black to see the light in your own? If you're half the deep thinker you keep trying to persuade us you are then you might consider the words of these songs, which are nothing but fair, honourable and entirely moral. If you see it otherwise then perhaps you could articulate in plain language exactly which words the offence stems from.

 

It must be so frustrating to be ashamed of your own when other like myself draw nothing but satisfaction from our humble beginnings and proud heritage. It's the same frustration that drives our detractors to attack the same associations you find so distasteful.

 

The accusation of "anger and hatred" that you wield like a weapon seems more at home on your side of the argument than mine. I'm proud of what you appear embarrassed by. I take inspiration from it while you take shame. I want to defend our traditions while you want to sweep then away and deny them. Who's in the dark?

[andy steel 0]

Weak argument going on there from Maineflyer. Disagreeing with you doesn't make anyone ashamed of their own, nor does it mean your viewpoint is driven by Spiers or Keevins. Those points you have raised are merely attempts to link people disagreeing with you to others, whom many on this board will hold in contempt, or to turn "I am embarrassed by some of our fans" into "I am ashamed of my own." That, in turn, suggests a lack of confidence in your ground. Some inverse intellectual snobbery there, too, as you have a dig at Calscot for trying to pose as a deep, intellectual thinker. What good does that sort of snipe do? I assume everyone on here, and certainly you for one, couldn't give a hoot what the others think of them - why do you assume others are trying to persuade anyone of anything?

 

It's the same old story. Can't we discuss this subject without hand wringing, Spiers, denials, revisionists, accusations like that, getting flung around.

 

Sorry to single out Maineflyer but he was last.

[calscot 0]

Why is it that apologists like you always have to paint the other person's picture black to see the light in your own? If you're half the deep thinker you keep trying to persuade us you are then you might consider the words of these songs, which are nothing but fair, honourable and entirely moral. If you see it otherwise then perhaps you could articulate in plain language exactly which words the offence stems from.

 

It must be so frustrating to be ashamed of your own when other like myself draw nothing but satisfaction from our humble beginnings and proud heritage. It's the same frustration that drives our detractors to attack the same associations you find so distasteful.

 

The accusation of "anger and hatred" that you wield like a weapon seems more at home on your side of the argument than mine. I'm proud of what you appear embarrassed by. I take inspiration from it while you take shame. I want to defend our traditions while you want to sweep then away and deny them. Who's in the dark?

 

 

I don't see what I'm an apologist for. Your argument has no evidence in the slightest and I put it to you is disingenuous. You seem to constantly deliberately ignore what I'm really saying and are coming out with rhetoric that doesn't fit the current state of debate.

 

The lyrics in the songs may be fine and dandy, I actually stressed that myself, but my point was appropriateness.

 

Supposing Rangers became adopted by the gay community and thousands of gays came along to sing openly gay songs that have nothing to do with football. Now those songs may be honorable and moral and there is nothing wrong with being gay, but would they be appropriate? Would they be embarrassing? Supposing they did it for 20 years, would it then be tradition? Would Rangers forever be thought of as a gay club and those that would like it to be more generic sexuality-wise be called apologists for the gay traditions of Rangers?

 

The disingenuous part is the proud of the Protestant traditions - today it's just a complete farce. Where does The Sash come from the Church of Scotland? Why aren't you and your non-apologists proudly belting out hymns at Ibrox like "Onward Christian Soldiers" or "Will your anchor hold?" Will there be rousing amounts of Carol singing on the lead up to the Protestant church's biggest celebration of Christ? Do you want Walter to lead us in prayer and bible readings before and after the game?

 

Or should we have closer ties with the Orange Order - how many fans are actually members or even know what it's all about?

 

What is it with the plastic Ulsterman thing anyway? The famine is over, why don't you go home? Get it?

[wabashcannonball 0]

If you are trying to deny the obvious, irrefutable and undeniable link between Rangers and the loyalist community of Ulster, or between Rangers and the protestant traditions of Scotland, then you are a silly revisionist plain and simple.

 

You may not enjoy those links but to pretend they don't exist is just nonsense. You may also think they should no longer exist but that's a completely different argument. For my part, I think those links are a source of enormous pride that certain others (yourself included no doubt) would like to see used against us in an entirely disingenious manner.

 

Rangers have long been much more than a team on a park. I know that, you know that, we all know that. If folks like you would stop cringing and scraping every time a Spiers or a Keevins takes a swipe at us then there would a lot less swipes taking place. The only embarrassment I feel is embarrassment at deniers like you.

 

I am not aware that I denied anything, I am aware that I said sectarianism has no place in the world never mind football. Do you condone sectarianism or are you against it.

[calscot 0]

Who said that singing songs at a football match is trying to be clever ?

 

Me thinks there is far too much over-analysing going on

 

Maybe it is, but when you think about it, if someone's behaviour is causing them bother and holding them back somewhat, is it not time for them to analyse it? Especially if it is less than clever?

 

I think jolly japes are all very well when it's innocent and no-one gets hurt, but when the law changes and some people go over the score, the press are making you out to be pariahs, a governing body is punishing you an threatening to strike you off, and some people are even going to jail: that's when it's time to analyse things and ask why we're doing it - and would we be better doing something slightly different instead...?

[maineflyer 0]

Weak argument going on there from Maineflyer. Disagreeing with you doesn't make anyone ashamed of their own, nor does it mean your viewpoint is driven by Spiers or Keevins. Those points you have raised are merely attempts to link people disagreeing with you to others, whom many on this board will hold in contempt, or to turn "I am embarrassed by some of our fans" into "I am ashamed of my own." That, in turn, suggests a lack of confidence in your ground. Some inverse intellectual snobbery there, too, as you have a dig at Calscot for trying to pose as a deep, intellectual thinker. What good does that sort of snipe do? I assume everyone on here, and certainly you for one, couldn't give a hoot what the others think of them - why do you assume others are trying to persuade anyone of anything?

 

It's the same old story. Can't we discuss this subject without hand wringing, Spiers, denials, revisionists, accusations like that, getting flung around.

 

Sorry to single out Maineflyer but he was last.

 

I don't agree with you and wouldn't change a word of what I wrote. I wish, just once, those who express embarrassment at the likes of these two songs or our long ties with loyalist Ulster would simply tell us why they feel this way - what exactly is to be embarrassed about?

[Cotter 0]

There's many forms of organised religion I disagree with but I wouldn't promote singing about any specific person associated with them. Preaching religious intolerance is actually a crime in this country, whether it's right or wrong.

 

Murray was regularly pilloried by Spiers and his cronies for not doing enough about sectarianism at Ibrox and yet I specifically remember him condemning the "F.T.P" Brigade.

 

Has anyone heard the pope come out and condemn the wee boy shaggers most recenty in the news? What is his plan for eradicating such behaviour from his venerated institution?

 

Sorry, but F.T.P. it is. :fish:

Edited December 16, 2009 by Cotter