Here we go again, let's condemn ourselves

[bmck 117]

This was what I had a real idea was going to happen and the reason why I and others did make a stand and took the message to yoofa, remember the "pope of rules"

and it did cost me time and money,to no avail as when trying to generate support I was often met with the same kind of statements that I hear on here.

 

I think the concerns of Zaps etc are real though. I don't know what thing you're referring to but lots of protests / activism seem to be about more than one thing, and if it's something you're going to put your name behind you need to be sure. I'll bet there were a fair few student protestors who went home thinking "This isn't what I'm here for". I'm not sure what stand you took, and whether I would have supported it, but I've got a funny feeling most of the sorts of protests people imagine will end up being quite worthless or involve something I wouldn't be happy saying I believed in.

 

We look at Celtic's activism and see it's "success" and think if we done something similar, standing up for ourselves, there would be similar results. I don't think it's true though - the reason Celtic are getting everything their own way at the moment is because their message chimes with the prejudices of our time - they can twist and turn their bitterness to make it look like they are oppressed, subject of racism and sectarianism - the very thing our media, and educated classes are most anxious about. We won't be able to do that as succesfully, and it's playing them on a pitch they're always going to win on. They've got a brand new generation of people in the influential classes of society who are willing to take up their cause - we don't have that. We don't have politicians strong enough to say that all this protection of 'minorities' is OTT and undermining society, because they are all too scared to look like racists or bigots. We similarly don't have a media strong enough to say the same thing for the same reasons.

 

The truth is, you'd need a protest with placards reading "I say ******, and I'm not a bigot" and "I think the famine song's funny, this doesn't make me racist", "Ef Tee Pee - When Dawkins says it, it's philosophy" - who would be happy to hold one of those? I'm happier just being thought of as a bigot. The problem we have, in a nutshell, is that their message - though bullshit - is very simple and taps easily into current prejudices. Our response is essentially subtle - saying it's wrong to criminalise elements of life that, while maybe unsavoury, are nonetheless not that serious and doings so just panders to extremists trying to make themselves look civilised.

[JMS 0]

You're right in a lot of what you say mate but I am not advocating violence just that if we had all stood as one and made it clear to murray that what we the majority

believed to be, let's say proper interpretation of culture, ethnics and the right to freedom of expression as well as the oppression from within Ibrox to it's own support,

then I believe that would most certainly have made a difference.

[bmck 117]

And possibly still could mate. The time would perhaps be at the changeover of owners - if it ever happens!

[pete 2,499]

I think this latest episode with the SFA is showing that this issue is becoming bigger than a Rangers problem. There's a militant political Catholicism in Scotland that will, because it's inherent within the theology, keep growing until it's met with some actual cultural resistance. I think we've seen some resistance in the response to the SFA thing, but disconcertingly little. You get the impression that what's happening to us is just one small part of something larger.

 

Has that not been the fact from the start of Catholicism and the reason the protestant faith was started?

[JMS 0]

Has that not been the fact from the start of Catholicism and the reason the protestant faith was started?

 

And more the reason why it should not be ignored and met with the same aggressiveness that is shown to us.

And I mean that in the nicest way of course...........................................................

[Zappa 0]

MF, JMS & others interested in ideas,

 

Here's what I believe needs to be done if anyone wants to address this issue properly -

 

 

Get together a small cooperative inter-site working group similar to what was done for the STS project. The group's objectives should be discussed at length and agreed upon.

 

The first objective (in my opinion) should be to create a compact, but professional report/document. The aim of the document should be to put forward a case for Rangers fans' legal right to sing The Billy Boys at SPL and Cup matches within Scottish Football stadiums without any threat or fear of being arrested on charges of sectarianism and without any threat or fear of repercussions for Rangers.

 

One way to help solidify this case would be to base the report on Rangers fans being discriminated against in this matter, since legally, discrimination is just as serious as the alleged sectarianism.

 

Gather a list of addresses for specific/selected Scottish MSPs as well as SFA & SPL staff to send it to once the report/document is completed. It would require serious thought and discussion as to whether it should be sent to people we know are not on our side, although at least one copy should definitely go to the club and our main supporter groups and reps.

 

Coordinate the mailing out of the report with a series of protests which will force the issue to be raised and discussed in the corridors of power including the Scottish Parliament. IMO protests should be focussed on Hampden and the Scottish Parliament. They could even be split between the two if being staged on the same day.

 

The man who's in charge of all sectarian issues in Parliament and will probably address anything brought up about the report and our case (assuming it's raised) is the Minister for Community Safety, Fergus Ewing MSP. He's the MSP for Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber and is not a catholic. Whenever a question is raised about sectarianism in Parliament he's the one who answers it and believe me, he's constantly being questioned about different facets of ongoing sectarianism projects, mainly by catholic MSPs.

 

 

There you go. That's my initial suggestion and I suppose it's pretty serious stuff in the context of the right to sing a song, but if you think it's over the top and taking the fight for TBB too far, then maybe you're not serious about your right to sing it after all because (IMO) to have any chance of winning this particular fight, you'll need to do more than protesting against the club.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Zappa

[JMS 0]

MF, JMS & others interested in ideas,

 

Here's what I believe needs to be done if anyone wants to address this issue properly -

 

 

Get together a small cooperative inter-site working group similar to what was done for the STS project. The group's objectives should be discussed at length and agreed upon.

 

The first objective (in my opinion) should be to create a compact, but professional report/document. The aim of the document should be to put forward a case for Rangers fans' legal right to sing The Billy Boys at SPL and Cup matches within Scottish Football stadiums without any threat or fear of being arrested on charges of sectarianism and without any threat or fear of repercussions for Rangers.

 

One way to help solidify this case would be to base the report on Rangers fans being discriminated against in this matter, since legally, discrimination is just as serious as the alleged sectarianism.

 

Gather a list of addresses for specific/selected Scottish MSPs as well as SFA & SPL staff to send it to once the report/document is completed. It would require serious thought and discussion as to whether it should be sent to people we know are not on our side, although at least one copy should definitely go to the club and our main supporter groups and reps.

 

Coordinate the mailing out of the report with a series of protests which will force the issue to be raised and discussed in the corridors of power including the Scottish Parliament. IMO protests should be focussed on Hampden and the Scottish Parliament. They could even be split between the two if being staged on the same day.

 

The man who's in charge of all sectarian issues in Parliament and will probably address anything brought up about the report and our case (assuming it's raised) is the Minister for Community Safety, Fergus Ewing MSP. He's the MSP for Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber and is not a catholic. Whenever a question is raised about sectarianism in Parliament he's the one who answers it and believe me, he's constantly being questioned about different facets of ongoing sectarianism projects, mainly by catholic MSPs.

 

 

There you go. That's my initial suggestion and I suppose it's pretty serious stuff in the context of the right to sing a song, but if you think it's over the top and taking the fight for TBB too far, then maybe you're not serious about your right to sing it after all because (IMO) to have any chance of winning this particular fight, you'll need to do more than protesting against the club.

 

Don't think you actually read me right, I did take the fight to uefa in the first instance not the club, but you do raise a few points namely why you and people on not just this site but others who make statements on websites and don't actually do anything of relevance.

 

That was your choosing then and probably your choice now as it for people to make their own choice.

 

I choose to try to make sure that these people were aware of the "Full Picture" and to try my best to stand up for what I believed in,

but ultimately I fell down due to lack of support from the rangers supporters, the so called supporters groups who were secretly, IMO,

in collusion with murray, and the kid on PR dept whom were ultimately being directed from the powers at Ibrox.

 

Thanks for the info on the of what I can do and who to contact, but, and I mean no disrespect mate, I have the T Shirt.

 

 

.

[bmck 117]

Out of interest JMS what was it you done and people didnt' support?

[Zappa 0]

Don't think you actually read me right, I did take the fight to uefa in the first instance not the club, but you do raise a few points namely why you and people on not just this site but others who make statements on websites and don't actually do anything of relevance.

 

That was your choosing then and probably your choice now as it for people to make their own choice.

 

Don't think you actually read me right mate. You've come across as if you still want to try and do something about this, so I've made a suggestion as to what I think could still be done. I didn't say I thought it would or could be successful.

 

It's the Scottish Government that's at the top of the hierarchy for dictating and dealing with sectarianism laws, projects and initiatives in this country, not UEFA. In actual fact, I personally believe that it was specific members of the Scottish Government (or a small group of them) who persuaded UEFA to do what they did to us. Sound plausible? Yeah, I think so too.

 

Thanks for the info on the of what I can do and who to contact, but, and I mean no disrespect mate, I have the T Shirt.

 

I mean no disrespect either mate, but you failed to make a difference whether you've got a t-shirt or not. I don't think my suggestion would make a difference either no matter how well done such a project was & no matter how many people turned up at the protests, but you asked me if I'd take the discussion forward and I came back to you with what I think is a suggestion for the only chance that's left - a well coordinated campaign that's targeted in the right direction. It would most likely fail, but would also generate a serious amount of interest and publicity.

[Zappa 0]

Here's a Scottish Parliament statement on the Government's strategy for tackling sectarianism from a year ago -

 

"Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party)

 

I am delighted to make this statement on the Government's strategy for tackling sectarianism, which is an issue of concern for everyone in the chamber.

 

For too long, sectarianism has plagued the lives of too many. We must eradicate it once and for all. In the past, sectarianism was the elephant in the room; we did not want to face up to the bigotry in some of our communities. In 2004, the previous Administration called time on sectarianism. It was time for communities, organisations and individuals to face up to sectarianism and to challenge it. The Government acknowledges the work of Jack McConnell and his Administration in taking that bold step to tackle sectarianism. There is no doubt that progress has been made. Sectarianism is not as prominent as it was when I grew up, but it is still part of the backdrop to Scottish life.

 

Our strategy is based on funding key projects and bringing together co-ordinated partnerships of organisations to deliver a spectrum of work in communities, the workplace and the courts. We are funding Nil by Mouth to tackle sectarianism in the workplace and to deliver a project supported by the Scottish Trades Union Congress; sense over sectarianism to work in communities; and Show Racism the Red Card to develop work to tackle sectarianism. Last December I launched the anti-sectarianism education resource that we funded YouthLink Scotland to develop. The Iona Community adapted that resource for inmates at Polmont young offenders institution. When I visited Polmont, I was so impressed that I asked the Iona Community to work in partnership with us to look at developing the resource for adult prisons.

 

By working in partnership, we can eradicate duplication of effort and ensure that our work is co-ordinated, focused and effective. The working group on racial and religious intolerance brings together the voluntary sector and non-governmental organisations. The football banning orders monitoring group, which I chair, brings together the football banning order manager, the Crown Office, the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland and the Scottish Football Association to ensure that banning orders are used effectively. The promoting citizenship through football partnership, which is chaired by SFA chief executive Gordon Smith, brings together the Scottish Government, sportscotland, the SFA, the Scottish Premier League, the Scottish Football League and ACPOS to look at how football can help to tackle societal problems, including sectarianism.

 

Although football is sometimes where sectarianism raises its ugly head, it also provides a vital lead in getting the anti-sectarian message across. Clubs at all levels are engaged with their communities. I am grateful to them for the work they do, including through the old firm alliance anti-sectarian education programme.

 

Alongside that good work, we have penalties in place for individuals who indulge in sectarian behaviour. Football banning orders deny bigots who indulge in abusive behaviour access to football matches. The FBO monitoring group is tasked with ensuring that those orders are used effectively. We will press for a banning order to be sought on every occasion that sectarian abuse, violence or disorder occurs. The Solicitor General for Scotland has confirmed that a Crown Office circular has been issued to ensure that deputes are proactive in bringing the possibility of a banning order to the attention of sheriffs. I am sure that all of us welcome that move.

 

As banning orders have been in place for three years, it is time for us to take stock to ensure that we are doing everything that we can to tackle the violence and abusive behaviour that sometimes mar our national sport. I will, therefore, ask the monitoring group to carry out an evaluation and to report in winter 2010.

 

Scotland has many marches and parades every year. Although the vast majority of them pass without incident, a minority can be the cause of public disorder and other forms of antisocial behaviour. The right to public assembly is fundamental, but the communities through which marches pass also have rights. Since the 2006 statement on tackling abusive behaviour at marches and parades, the number of marches has changed little. I call on the organisers to consider the impact and disruption that marches can cause. I will invite the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, ACPOS and the STUC to work with me to look at the 2006 statement again to see how it can be used at a local level to ensure that all parties are working together for the good of all communities.

 

Education is another area that we continue to drive forward, and I am delighted that Learning and Teaching Scotland will refresh the "sectarianism: don't give it don't take it" resource to ensure that it is fully aligned with the new curriculum. I commend that resource to all schools.

 

I have seen the great work that is being done through art, drama and poetry to embed in young people the message that sectarianism has no place in Scotland. Many projects have been the basis on which schools have been twinned, and I have been impressed by the creativity and drive of the teachers who have developed such initiatives.

 

Our strategy is to work in partnership with people at the coalface. Working together, we will co-ordinate and maximise our efforts through our partnership groups; ensure that resources are up to date and fit for purpose; and ensure that the penalties for sectarian behaviour are used appropriately, and that we take action when they are not.

 

Sectarianism has blighted Scotland for too long. It will take a co-ordinated and concerted effort to achieve what we all want: a Scotland where sectarianism is unknown, and a Scotland that recognises and celebrates the fact that being one Scotland of many cultures and faiths makes us a better and stronger nation."

Edited December 13, 2010 by Zappa