Here we go again, let's condemn ourselves

[Frankie 8,183]

Such common sense isn't always applied in a court of law, Pete...

[maineflyer 0]

Do you think UEFA and/or the SPL would then punish us given the warnings the club have been making of late?

 

Someone somewhere is putting the club under pressure here. The why is obvious - the who, less so. Playing Russian Roulette may be one course of action but what happens if our bluff is called?

 

It's actually of no consequence what I think UEFA will do. I've made no comment on what UEFA will or won't do if we sing this song. If you press me I'll say no, they won't touch this with the proverbial bargepole.

 

However, the issue I have is with those running Rangers and who have been deliberately misleading the support they should serve (or at least pretend to serve), while using those lies to further the cause of those who would see the club punished and diminished. Unless the Rangers hierarchy embrace some degree of honesty with respect to the support instead of endlessly manipulating and deceiving, they are actually contributing to the pressure on the club.

 

I would also put it to you that until and unless we address this particular problem, it won't matter what views websites such as this take on Graeme Spiers, the catholic conspiracy, The Liewell, or whoever. As long as Murray or his mouthpieces refuse to deal honestly with the support and seek & act in a spirit of mutual interest instead of selfish exclusion, the club isn't worth supporting. There may be some here who think supporting Rangers is some kind or rote process, trooping out the same old mantras, falling into sheeplike lines of little Rangers soldiers, but I think there must be more to it than that or it has no value at all. Unless you first decide what Rangers is/means/ represents then how do you know what it is and whether you want to support it. Does supporting the club mean unthinking allegiance or does it merit better? I think it does, sing the song and flush out the corruption that is patently rife in our club. If by some chance we get fined or otherwise punished then it will still have been the most worthwhile exercise of the last twenty years. We need to stop fixating on the problems and have the conviction to pursue the solution with a vigour that's been almost entirely missing at Rangers since that evil bastard bought the club from better men.

[pete 2,499]

Such common sense isn't always applied in a court of law, Pete...

 

Obviously not i suppose there are more ways than one to bend the law.

[Frankie 8,183]

It's actually of no consequence what I think UEFA will do. I've made no comment on what UEFA will or won't do if we sing this song. If you press me I'll say no, they won't touch this with the proverbial bargepole.

 

However, the issue I have is with those running Rangers and who have been deliberately misleading the support they should serve (or at least pretend to serve), while using those lies to further the cause of those who would see the club punished and diminished. Unless the Rangers hierarchy embrace some degree of honesty with respect to the support instead of endlessly manipulating and deceiving, they are actually contributing to the pressure on the club.

 

I would also put it to you that until and unless we address this particular problem, it won't matter what views websites such as this take on Graeme Spiers, the catholic conspiracy, The Liewell, or whoever. As long as Murray or his mouthpieces refuse to deal honestly with the support and seek & act in a spirit of mutual interest instead of selfish exclusion, the club isn't worth supporting. There may be some here who think supporting Rangers is some kind or rote process, trooping out the same old mantras, falling into sheeplike lines of little Rangers soldiers, but I think there must be more to it than that or it has no value at all. Unless you first decide what Rangers is/means/ represents then how do you know what it is and whether you want to support it. Does supporting the club mean unthinking allegiance or does it merit better? I think it does, sing the song and flush out the corruption that is patently rife in our club. If by some chance we get fined or otherwise punished then it will still have been the most worthwhile exercise of the last twenty years. We need to stop fixating on the problems and have the conviction to pursue the solution with a vigour that's been almost entirely missing at Rangers since that evil bastard bought the club from better men.

 

Sorry you've lost me. If we sing the song and get punished won't that show that the club didn't lie about any ban?

 

Like you, I'm frustrated at the lack of clarity (and I wouldn't tell anyone what or what not to sing) but I think we need better strategies than defiantly singing songs to address the problems (alleged or otherwise) we face.

 

The problem is that given the club don't lead well, our fans don't lead well and we seem to lack any organisation whatsoever when it comes to our challenges, we're all p!ssing in the wind on whatever website we use.

 

That's why the enemies you mention are being so successful. The Billy Boys debate is just one symptom of a larger disease which is debilitating our club off the park. Pursuing solutions to this are well and good (tell me where to sign up) but I don't see many suggestions from anyone unfortunately.

[maineflyer 0]

Sorry you've lost me. If we sing the song and get punished won't that show that the club didn't lie about any ban?

 

Like you, I'm frustrated at the lack of clarity (and I wouldn't tell anyone what or what not to sing) but I think we need better strategies than defiantly singing songs to address the problems (alleged or otherwise) we face.

 

The problem is that given the club don't lead well, our fans don't lead well and we seem to lack any organisation whatsoever when it comes to our challenges, we're all p!ssing in the wind on whatever website we use.

 

That's why the enemies you mention are being so successful. The Billy Boys debate is just one symptom of a larger disease which is debilitating our club off the park. Pursuing solutions to this are well and good (tell me where to sign up) but I don't see many suggestions from anyone unfortunately.

Unfortunately, it's entirely possible that the club may get punished for reasons nothing to do with UEFA and everything to do with the political agenda in Scotland. Does that make it any less clear? I do not for a minute believe that UEFA ever banned a Rangers song or that there can be any punishment today against a directive that was never issued or at least never issued in the terms being claimed by Rangers. It is however possible that we could be punished under a new initiative by UEFA, which the club would no doubt use as a justification for everything it has been saying. In fact it would be entirely in keeping with their duplicitous nature.

 

Why should we sing the song, defiantly or not? because there is simply no alternative. You may want better strategies, as I do, and good luck finding them. However, while definitely more intellectually satisfying, I'm afraid you will only find the same old dead end in the process. The reason why the song should be sung as a means of leveraging progress is because it is the only option available to you, me or any other concerned supporter. Unless of course you want to join the naysayers who look to indulge their own sense of personal propriety to gauge what is best for the club - personally I think these people have done nothing but contribute to the problem while salving their own consciences.

 

Neither is it true to say that no one is coming up with strategies for dealing with the greater anti-Rangers agenda. Some of us have been ridiculed widely for years as peripheral radicals because we advocated open protest (not the Rangers way) and confrontation. We challenged the RST for its failure to act on our behalf and many chose to see it as trouble making. In fact some people have been showing the way for over ten years while most adopted the smuggery of their comfort zones, choosing to pretend there was no real problem, or at least that this was just a cycle and the pixies at the bottom of the Rangers garden would soon come along to hoist us back to a better place. The problem IS the Rangers support - if you're not seeing suggestions then perhaps you're not looking. Sing the song ffs, stop making life so easy for those who don't deserve it. Pissing in the wind is exactly where we're at today and it will stay like that until we develop sufficient conviction that we want it to change. Sing the fucking song.

[Zappa 0]

How in gods name can you be prosecuted for giving a true description of someone who's ancestors in fact used the word with pride for their warrior sons? I can see calling a protestant a fen!an as derogatory but not people who want to be identified with Irish nationalism. It just does not make sense to me and i cannot see how a good lawyer cannot rip holes in any prosecutions.

 

It's the context Pete. As soon as the word is accompanied by a profanity it's given a new context.

[JMS 0]

Theobold Wolf Tone father figure in the republican movement, a Protestant.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfe_Tone.

 

The point is fe_nianism is a movement and not a religion and if you decry it in song how

the Fukk can it be sectarian, or have I missed something.

They call themselves Fe_nians it is in the papers, they say in a way that says he was a good

(NO SUCH F_KKIN THING) Fe_nian, I have in in Print.

[Bluedell 5,356]

Although i am more a football supporter than someone who is likely to lead a protestant uprising, and thus not really interested whether i can use the word fen!an or not,i really cannot understand how Scottish courts can get away with prosecuting people for using the word. First of all the word is in the English dictionary. Secondly the word was brought in by Irish republican supporters in America as a name for it's young warriors defending Ireland. As Celtic supporters often sing songs of defending and freeing Ireland from the British, in their own description of themselves they are Fen!ans. A fact which is backed up by the English dictionary. How in gods name can you be prosecuted for giving a true description of someone who's ancestors in fact used the word with pride for their warrior sons? I can see calling a protestant a fen!an as derogatory but not people who want to be identified with Irish nationalism. It just does not make sense to me and i cannot see how a good lawyer cannot rip holes in any prosecutions.

Maybe i am looking at it too simply or the fen!ans are now fighting a more penetrating war getting the right men in the right places.

 

Fen!an is used by many as a derogatory term for RC, as well as its other meanings. It suits certain people to assume that it is used that way on an exclusive basis, hence the problems with singing TBB.

 

It's similar to the so-called Famine song. It is claimed that it is aimed at Irish people and is therefore racist. It's not, and is taking the piss out of plastic paddies singing TFOA, even though they are Scottish. It doesn't help when someone like Donald Fiindlay failed to grasp this most basic of points and failed in his pathetic attempt to overturn the decision to find someone guilty of singing it.

[Bluedell 5,356]

Theobold Wolf Tone father figure in the republican movement, a Protestant.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfe_Tone.

 

The point is fe_nianism is a movement and not a religion and if you decry it in song how

the Fukk can it be sectarian, or have I missed something.

They call themselves Fe_nians it is in the papers, they say in a way that says he was a good

(NO SUCH F_KKIN THING) Fe_nian, I have in in Print.

 

When you have Rangers supporters calling Spanish or Italians fen!ans as has happened in the past then it becomes difficult to say that they are referring to that player's views on Irish republicianism, and not the fact that they are RC.

[Bluedell 5,356]

It's the context Pete. As soon as the word is accompanied by a profanity it's given a new context.

 

I'd disagree. I don't think that it has to be accompanied by a profanity (TBB doesn't contain any).

 

Neil Lennon is a fen!ian/fen!an bastard, and I'd get charged for for religious BOTP (or whatever the relevant charge is) for saying both, even though I am not making any intention of referring to his religion. (I have no idea or interest of his current religious beliefs).

 

However someone else could call him the same and be referring his his religion.

 

The current situation in Scotland would not allow any other interpretation other than it is referring to his religion.