Here we go again, let's condemn ourselves

[JMS 0]

What..... a seat within........perhaps?

[Bluedell 5,356]

Are you saying it was her who replied (on behalf of the Scottish Exec) to the Gersnet report Frankie pointed to??

 

Yes .

[Frankie 8,183]

The reason diplomatic language is what it is, is to ensure that everyone comes to the same understanding, or at least is justified in coming to the understanding they choose. The "banning" of the Billy Boys is a wonderful example of the diplomat's ability to interpret words to meet a pre-arranged agenda.

 

I believe Murray decided it was in his personal interest to be seen to stamp out certain "attributes" of the Rangers support. TBB became one such attribute when it was seized upon by the people who pull the strings of the OC and others. I also believe UEFA were duped into their reaction to complaints against Rangers. However, while UEFA could be excused for acting in ignorance, those running Rangers cannot. I believe Rangers lied deliberately and not only contrived the UEFA ban of TBB but knowingly used senior members of the RST to further that lie.

 

That the intervening years have never seen the UEFA correspondence revealed to those it seeks to influence is telling enough. I do not believe TBB was ever banned by UEFA and that the truth will not be allowed to emerge until after Murray sells his shareholding - and that his desperation not to be exposed as an outright liar may even see disclosure restricted as a condition of sale.

 

As things stand I believe we have been used and lied to by those who we should expect to stand shoulder to shoulder with us. I also believe there is now no alternative than to challenge these lies by requiring UEFA to confirm or deny the song is banned. I'll also repeat my opinion that any unwillingness to do so is both cowardly and against the genuine interests of Rangers.

 

I think much of that is probably correct.

 

FWIW, I feel UEFA clearly fined us for singing TBB after pressure of Celtic-minded people in Scotland. After that censure, I then feel Murray felt the best course of action was to proscribe that particular song to avoid further problems. In retrospect, that action was possibly premature as I doubt UEFA are overly interested in taking stronger action.

 

However, it is difficult to judge their intentions because (as we seen with the Villarreal debacle) they're a law unto themselves and will remain pressured by people in higher places than you or I.

 

As such, to try and move the debate on, how would you recommend we challenge UEFA and/or other parties in order to achieve clarity?

[maineflyer 0]

I think much of that is probably correct.

 

FWIW, I feel UEFA clearly fined us for singing TBB after pressure of Celtic-minded people in Scotland. After that censure, I then feel Murray felt the best course of action was to proscribe that particular song to avoid further problems. In retrospect, that action was possibly premature as I doubt UEFA are overly interested in taking stronger action.

 

However, it is difficult to judge their intentions because (as we seen with the Villarreal debacle) they're a law unto themselves and will remain pressured by people in higher places than you or I.

 

As such, to try and move the debate on, how would you recommend we challenge UEFA and/or other parties in order to achieve clarity?

 

In line with the points you make - and with much regret at the lack of reasonable alternatives - the only practical course is to sing the song. I believe there is no other way to access the truth.

[Frankie 8,183]

In line with the points you make - and with much regret at the lack of reasonable alternatives - the only practical course is to sing the song. I believe there is no other way to access the truth.

 

Do you think UEFA and/or the SPL would then punish us given the warnings the club have been making of late?

 

Someone somewhere is putting the club under pressure here. The why is obvious - the who, less so. Playing Russian Roulette may be one course of action but what happens if our bluff is called?

[rbr 1,247]

Do you think UEFA and/or the SPL would then punish us given the warnings the club have been making of late?

 

Someone somewhere is putting the club under pressure here. The why is obvious - the who, less so. Playing Russian Roulette may be one course of action but what happens if our bluff is called?

 

Then we take everyone down with us , or we have a grown up debate about what we are and how we start behaving as a nation , the offended bus needs parked forever never to be let out again

[Frankie 8,183]

Then we take everyone down with us , or we have a grown up debate about what we are and how we start behaving as a nation , the offended bus needs parked forever never to be let out again

 

Given we seem to the only club making public statements and mentioning specific songs being banned, how do we take everyone down with us if there is no appetite to examine other clubs/supports?

 

Given Celtic's continual and ongoing Republican stance and their supports' unpunished penchant for IRA glorification (something which is also supposed to be illegal) then one could argue fen!an has never been more appropriate in song from those who oppose such principles. As such, any grown up debate highlighting the faux offence and clear double standards would be welcome.

 

I'd have thought Leggatt was one person who could help put together our case. Gordon Smith and Professor Steve Bruce may be another couple of experienced folk who could comment. I'm sure we all have other contacts of appropriate background (legal, academic etc) who we could approach to put together something that shows exactly how sensationalised this whole subject is.

 

The most immediate hurdle though is that terms such as 'fen!an' have already been pretty much outlawed in this country in many contexts. When people like Donald Findlay struggle to defend their use in the courts and many more people (with vested interests such as politicians or charities) argue against it publicly, then it won't be easy to show how harmless a football chant which utilises it is.

[calscot 0]

It's a really silly situation and if UEFA and the SFA are going to play silly buggers about it there should be a legal responsibility to set up a proper committee where songs by any club can be put up for banning by another club with a full hearing to decide the outcome with proper legal argument, defence and right to appeal. Then a list of banned songs and words can be created and clearly advertised with proper sanctions duly and rigorously given when the songs are sung. That way fans and clubs know exactly where they stand before they are punished for something that is only currently a matter of extreme and over-sensitive interpretation by people not even present.

 

It would, for example, be ludicrous if Rangers were punished by UEFA for our fans singing alternative words to TBB for the crime of using a tune that any other club fans are allowed to use. Or even worse to be convicted of a race crime for singing a tongue in cheek song that has no racial content or even malice except fantasised by those with extreme paranoia and malcontention of the same ilk as muslim extremists.

 

I realise my solution is over the top but we really need some kind of grown up way of dealing with this rather than blindly punishing innocent people due to the bleating lies of malicious tattle-tales.

[Frankie 8,183]

Excellent post Cal...

 

Or even better UEFA and the SPL just releasing a statement saying 'Sticks and stones...'

[pete 2,499]

Given we seem to the only club making public statements and mentioning specific songs being banned, how do we take everyone down with us if there is no appetite to examine other clubs/supports?

 

Given Celtic's continual and ongoing Republican stance and their supports' unpunished penchant for IRA glorification (something which is also supposed to be illegal) then one could argue fen!an has never been more appropriate in song from those who oppose such principles. As such, any grown up debate highlighting the faux offence and clear double standards would be welcome.

 

 

I'd have thought Leggatt was one person who could help put together our case. Gordon Smith and Professor Steve Bruce may be another couple of experienced folk who could comment. I'm sure we all have other contacts of appropriate background (legal, academic etc) who we could approach to put together something that shows exactly how sensationalised this whole subject is.

 

The most immediate hurdle though is that terms such as 'fen!an' have already been pretty much outlawed in this country in many contexts. When people like Donald Findlay struggle to defend their use in the courts and many more people (with vested interests such as politicians or charities) argue against it publicly, then it won't be easy to show how harmless a football chant which utilises it is.

 

Although i am more a football supporter than someone who is likely to lead a protestant uprising, and thus not really interested whether i can use the word fen!an or not,i really cannot understand how Scottish courts can get away with prosecuting people for using the word. First of all the word is in the English dictionary. Secondly the word was brought in by Irish republican supporters in America as a name for it's young warriors defending Ireland. As Celtic supporters often sing songs of defending and freeing Ireland from the British, in their own description of themselves they are Fen!ans. A fact which is backed up by the English dictionary. How in gods name can you be prosecuted for giving a true description of someone who's ancestors in fact used the word with pride for their warrior sons? I can see calling a protestant a fen!an as derogatory but not people who want to be identified with Irish nationalism. It just does not make sense to me and i cannot see how a good lawyer cannot rip holes in any prosecutions.

Maybe i am looking at it too simply or the fen!ans are now fighting a more penetrating war getting the right men in the right places.