New Anti-sectarianism Legislation To Be Delayed

[chilledbear 16]

They were perfectly happy to keep quiet when the spotlight was only on Rangers, the tide turned once the real causes of sectarianism began to be talked about.

[Kenzie1 0]

Trying to force through a lop-sided piece of trash in the close season when football fans are on holidays and certainly not having meetings etc to discuss these things was a clever move. However it was so ridiculous and badly written that it was fairly easy to rip it to shreds and as more and more people (non-RC of course) came out and ridiculed it, including the committe in Holyrood who are supposed to examine every bill in detail, it was doomed.

Hopefully this will give us time to prepare proper representation, lobbying and make this bill, if required at all, a fair and just law for all, not just for the MOPES.

 

I can see it disappearing into the dust if the 2011-12 season progresses without any major flashpoints.

 

I agree with you. Salmond et al, have been shocked by the reacion to their Bill (they no doubt thought that with their strength in numbers in Parliament they could do whatever they liked, unopposed). However; they cannot say they weren't warned. The dangers of this Bill - Human Rights not being the least of them - were well flagged up long before they tried to force it through Parliament. Of course it didn't help getting someone like Cunningham to be the public "face" of this piece of legislation. Everytime she appeared on TV to be interviewed she hummed and hawed her way through the interviews giving the impression that nothing had been thought through to a conclusion. Result: she made a complete arse of herself. Not difficult, I know. (As an aside, I note that McBride, after saying what a well-drafted Bill this was, is keeping his head well down - wonder why?)

 

 

This Bill was, I think, doomed from the start as it originated simply because Salmond - a man for whom the bandwagon has not been built that he will not jump on - thought that his popularity would be enhanced by raising his profile with this stupid piece of legislation rather than be seen trying to do something positive about the real problems faced by so many in Scotland today. I mean, how ludicrous can it be that (ostensibly) you could spend more time in prison for singing tha National Anthem than for stabbing someone. Go on, tell me someone, when was the last time anyone received the maximum 5-year sentence for stabbing someone? But I'd bet a pound to a pinch of shit that the first person to have been arrested under this ridiculous legislation would have been made an example of - at least until it got to the Supreme Court, prior to being laughed out of court.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Kenzie1

[Zappa 0]

That definition not only doesn't present fascism (which is notoriously difficult to define - where to even place fascism on a political compass is different, it's seldom far right), but doesn't reflect what's going on in our country.

 

Paxton's definition describes what he considered to be a form of fascism, but it definitely loses an important aspect of classic perceptions of fascism when you remove the words I did such as 'militants' and 'violence'. Those words could easily have been left in though because we've seen a growth in militancy and unnecessary use of force in Scotland.

 

In recent years we've seen genuinely peaceful protests being met with hundreds of armed riot police and these peaceful protests spoiled and marred by fake anarchists in black hoodies with faces masked who clash with police. Anarchists obviously do exist, but that is also a militant protest-squashing tactic which has been proven to be getting used globally for a good number of years now. All over the world peaceful protests have been deliberately turned into violent clashes using the fake anarchists tactic as a means of ending the protest and dispersing the crowds and this is not only well documented, but happening in Scotland and the UK too.

 

Then we have the issue of general cops out on the beat in the UK being issued with 50,000 volt tasers which are essentially catagorized as firearms. Most of us will remember that there was a big stushie in Holyrood last year about Strathclyde Police running a pilot scheme with a view to introduce it widely. It was many of the same yahoos in Holyrood lobying for the introduction of tasers that are now lobying for a new 'offensive behaviour' (sectarianism) legislation, but maybe that's just a coincidence. Leading RC's in Glasgow City Council were heavily involved in the introduction of tasers as well and one in particular (Curran?) was subject to some allegations on the matter.

 

Then this year we have night time armed police raids all over Scotland sparked by TLB and a couple of semi-important Celtic fans supposedly receiving bombs called 'viable devices' in the post. Practically ALL of the police raids were conducted after receiving anonymous tip-offs. In one operation alone there were dozens of raids conducted one night resulting in the arrest of two Rangers fans in Ayrshire. Has anyone arrested under 'suspision' for any of these supposed crimes been convicted in a court of law yet? The police didn't have any evidence to have the two guys arrested in Ayrshire convicted when they appeared at court in Kilmarnock, so what's happening with that whole farce? Ooooo... lets not forget about that terrorist student who's digs were raided by police and he was arrested because he dressed up as Postman Pat and put a picture of it on facebook.

 

Fascist pigs!

 

We are not obsessed with decline, humiliation and have no cults of unity, energy or purity. We're far too liberal to allow internal cleansing and we're anything but expanding. I agree with you that we're not a functioning democracy though. I think we're just a lazy democracy in a world where corporations are not subject to nations.

 

The phrase was actually - 'obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity' and basically I thought this description from Paxton was interesting because the Scottish government has indeed had an 'obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood' for well over a decade. During that time and cosily discussed as part of those general preoccupations, the sectarianism subject has consistantly been pushed by Catholic politicians whose real agenda has been about installing a biased system of interpretation of the subject. If you take the rest of Paxton's definition after 'victim-hood', to me it sounds spookily like what's going on. The cult of unity, energy and purity would be the Roman Catholic church which must be the most powerful church in Scotland. I'm interpreting 'a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants' as politicians in Scotland including many Roman Catholics who are trying to dictate the law in our country and appear to have militant views such as introducing deadly weapons to our general public police force and supporting armed raids on people's homes during the night because of anonymous tip-offs.

 

To me the rest of Paxton's definition (barring perhaps the 'violence') does indeed fit. If a new piece of legislation being hammered through parliament to create new wide-ranging crimes for 'offensive behaviour' isn't 'internal cleansing', I don't know what it is. Regarding 'external expansion', SNP stated that internationalization was one of their 6 most important subjects (alongside tackling sectarianism), but you could also consider expansion in the sense of it being one of the key goals of a group (cabal) of unified people in various positions of power such as the many Roman Catholics in Scottish society.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Zappa
typo

[bmck 117]

Zaps, I'll get back to this dude. But you're confusing authoritarianism with fascism. While all fascist culture are authoritarian, not all authoritarian cultures are fascist. We have no class-spanning myths of national unity, that animate people towards cults of national religious purity and strength - we have no equivalent of any of the most defining features of historical fascisms such as Hitler's or the rather different one of Mussolini. What we do have, which is what you describe, is a strong top down authoritarian impulse which is, only incidentally, also found in fascist cultures. It's also found in communist cultures. We are not a fascist culture in any sense, any more than we are communist. We're just not, or the word has no historical meaning. There are, however, strong authoritarian impulses - which is what you describe and mislabel fascist. I'll reply fully later.

Edited June 25, 2011 by bmck

[Zappa 0]

Zaps, I'll get back to this dude. But you're confusing authoritarianism with fascism. While all fascist culture are authoritarian, not all authoritarian cultures are fascist. We have no class-spanning myths of national unity, that animate people towards cults of national religious purity and strength - we have no equivalent of any of the most defining features of historical fascisms such as Hitler's or the rather different one of Mussolini. What we do have, which is what you describe, is a strong top down authoritarian impulse which is, only incidentally, also found in fascist cultures. It's also found in communist cultures. We are not a fascist culture in any sense, any more than we are communist. We're just not, or the word has no historical meaning. There are, however, strong authoritarian impulses - which is what you describe and mislabel fascist. I'll reply fully later.

 

I wasn't trying to equate this to older, historical forms of fascism though and I think that's important to establish since you've pulled me up on it. You rightly said that historically fascism took on different forms and what I'm saying is that it's alive and well in modern day society, just in different forms and varied extremities. The word itself is widely used today and rightly so given what's going on in the world, but that doesn't instantly equate to the word having no historical meaniing. Maybe we should take the 'fascism' debate to the Gersnet Court forum??

[thesins 0]

When Cunningham brought the Catholic church into this with her "sign of the cross" comments I was delighted. It highlighted its not all a one way street, and say what you like about them, but they certainly stick up for their flock. When she mentioned that I knew they wouldnt sit back and take it so would want the law changed.

 

We just need to be careful what it is changed too.

[Frankie 8,153]

Over the next 60-90 days I'd imagine the government will now seek to publish a consultation paper taking into account all the various submissions they've received.

 

It will be interesting to see who else they call to give evidence to any future committee meetings on this basis.

[aweebluesoandso 290]

Over the next 60-90 days I'd imagine the government will now seek to publish a consultation paper taking into account all the various submissions they've received.

 

It will be interesting to see who else they call to give evidence to any future committee meetings on this basis.

 

This is when our side of the argument must be heard too, you can bet your bottom dollar the Republican and Catholic minded will use this time delay to get their point across. That Irish Republicanism and terrorist support is cultural heritage and not sectarian, which is bollocks to every reasonable minded person.

[Gribz 743]

Salmond setting up a spy network?

 

All Scottish fans and players get code of conduct in crackdown on sectarianism

 

PLAYERS, officials and supporters of every team in Scottish football will be asked to abide by a code of conduct by the end of the new season, as part of efforts to root out sectarianism and disorder from the game.

The measure will see clubs adopt a single code for fans that will allow "appropriate sanctions" to be taken against those who commit "football-related offences", while separate guidelines will govern the behaviour of players, coaches and other staff.

 

The codes of conduct were among scores of recommendations announced yesterday by the multi-agency group set up to clamp down on sectarian and offensive behaviour at fixtures.

 

The joint action group (JAG), whose members include the Scottish Government, Strathclyde Police and both Rangers and Celtic, also pledged to establish a nationwide policing unit dedicated to gathering intelligence on offenders and helping in post-match investigations.

 

Tough controls on the sale of alcohol could be brought in, with senior police officers given the power to ask courts for restrictions at licensed premises in areas where trouble is expected.

 

With the new Scottish season less than two weeks away, JAG said the "wide-ranging recommendations" would help improve the game in Scotland.

 

First Minister Alex Salmond praised the "powerful proposals" drawn up by the group but emphasised it was only the "beginning of the process" to tackle sectarian behaviour.

 

While precise details of the codes of conduct have yet to be agreed, they will cover every member club of the Scottish Football Association (SFA).

 

A spokeswoman for the Scottish Government said the content of the codes was a "work in progress" that would be fleshed out by the JAG members, and it is intended they will be in place before next May. It has yet to be established whether the "football-related offences" will cover sectarian songs and chants.

 

The new National Football Policing Unit will be overseen by a superintendent from Strathclyde Police. Backed by �£1.8 million in government funding, it is designed to introduce greater consistency to the way matches are policed. In practice, the unit's duties will include attending matches throughout the country, where required, to assist other forces. Final staffing levels are still being ratified, but it is understood the number of officers will be in double figures, and will begin their work in time for the start of this season a week on Saturday.

 

At its final meeting before the new season, the JAG also vowed to engage more formally with supporters to "build consensus" and "seek their views".

 

Announcing the 40 points its members had agreed on, the group said it had made "significant progress" from the initial proposals set out at its inaugural meeting in March.

 

Other key measures included: new powers allowing licensing boards to restrict the opening hours of premises around match times; amendments to Football Banning Orders legislation to "extend" their use and ensure they are deployed "more effectively", confirmation this year's New Year Old Firm derby will be played on Wednesday, 28 December, with changes to other games between the Glasgow rivals.

 

Speaking after the meeting at Hampden Park in Glasgow, Mr Salmond said: "All of the partners have made a real commitment to turn words into action and the powerful proposals we have agreed highlight our determination to work together."

 

The recommendations come weeks after Mr Salmond called a halt to emergency legislation intended to tackle football-related hate crimes. The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Bill would have created two offences relating to behaviour deemed to "incite religious, racial or other forms of hatred" in and around football grounds and on the internet.

 

Scotsman July 12.

[calscot 0]

What I want to know, is that apart from Celtic noising the whole issue up, certain journalists mischief making and the pretty bad event of couple of nutters posting a home-made bomb, what has really happened differently last season to cause all this furore? Has our society suddenly deteriorated into a religious hate-fest without some of us noticing? Is there some kind of neo-nazi turf war going on or something?

 

What is it all these SFA officials, politicians and police are trying to achieve?

 

I'm pretty lost about the whole motivation and what behaviour they are trying to stop. Rangers fans seem to be the ones picked on by the police, the press and SFA and yet they are not even told what they are doing wrong. And indeed much of the stuff they are accused of is racist and sectarian in itself.

 

They are told they bigotted for singing the national anthem and Rule Britannia which is just an anti-British, racist accusation, the Sash and Derry's walls which is a sectarian accusation and many other innocent songs.

 

The word Fenian is pretty much describing an IRA supporter in today's parlance but and somehow Rangers fans are bigoted for being against terrorist supporters and the Famine song is sarcastic mocking of our society's detractors who pretend to be downtrodden foreigners in their own country, so why is it ridiculously illegal?

 

Why are the actual people who are inciting religious and racist hatred as well as glorifying terrorist acts the ones who are let off Scot free?

 

At best, the whole country seems to have lost it's sense of humour, at worst it seems like a witch hunt from the dark ages.