European minnows

[calscot 0]

Are there any european minnows these days or are we slowly falling and becoming a minnow ourselves?

 

If we're slowly falling then we're right at the start of the fall. It's only a four seasons since we were in the UEFA Cup final and only getting beat in one leg by Barcelona due to them blatantly cheating. We were beating the French champions 3-0 and putting a lot of decent clubs with more money to the sword. That was one of the best European campaigns in our history and the best in the last quarter of a century.

 

We had two crap seasons after that but did ok last year. Before that the PLG season wasn't bad and the year before that we were almost in the CL quarter final.

 

Seems to me that far from being a steady decline, we are fluctuating up and down through the years which suggests that we could easily have a good run again next year.

 

If you look at Rangers' European history, it's been the same throughout the decades with far more disappointment than seasons to cheer about. I think Scotland were 26th about 1997 and after a while we were back up to a peak of 9th and hovered around the 11 mark for quite a while.

 

It's been a horrendous few years for Scotland since our UEFA final with only our run last year contributing. Our non-OF teams have been incredibly poor but what hasn't helped is that Celtic have been worse than us lately. However, most years the majority of our coefficient points are gained by the OF and we just need both of them to bounce back and have some good runs for a few years. Their points are watered down by the number of teams we have in Europe so we were hit badly when we had six teams competing. At least we'll now have less teams to divide the total by.

 

Are the days gone where we can beat teams 10-0 on aggregate (Valetta) or even score a good few goals at home in the 1st leg and then stick 10 men behind the ball away from home to play the tie out?

 

Gone are the days since we played someone like Valetta as they are usually now eliminated before we can meet them - because our ranking is too high! I think that's counter to your own argument...

 

This goes for Celtic too. That's two seasons running they never progressed into the Europa League. Are we getting that bad that simply making the group stages of the Europa League is an achievement in itself?

 

They have a rookie manager who seems a bit clueless in Europe. If we win the league again, they'll surely have a new manager next year. If not, then he might actually learn from his mistakes.

 

These smaller teams we come up against in europe seem to have a better technique than us. Better passing, better movement, better first touch and a better idea of what their individual jobs are on the field. We sometimes seem clueless.

 

You must have watched four different games than me. Overall I think we were a much better footballing team than both the Swedish and Slovenian champions. Unfortunately, we didn't turn better football into results. I think all you can say they were better than us at, was sticking the ball in the net. However, we out passed them, out manoeuvred them, out touched them and were the dominant team. I really don't know how you can say differently.

 

What we lacked was not technique, it was a winning mentality. People didn't appreciate it under Walter but now it's gone, we're playing "nicer" football but as has been pointed out many times, that doesn't always get results. The fact is, when we lose, people only remember it as crap football.

 

Teams will draw us and expect to beat us now.

 

Is Rangers still a big club on the european scene? Absolutely not. We'll struggle in europe for years to come.

 

We may now seem an easier draw but whether we struggle in future is anyone guess based on our historical record. We WILL struggle against the richer clubs but what people have to realise is that the Swedish and Slovenian champs are our natural peers - wealthy, modern countries of around 5M people. It's an arrogance to think they are the minnows.

 

All we can go on and do is win the league every year just to get it up Celtic because we won't be doing anything in europe for the forseeable future.

 

Should we call you "Mystic Gav"? People have been trying to sound sage and negatively predict the future like this for the last four years and have looked like idiots time and again. According to some we have not won the last three leagues in a row - or the cups, we didn't get to the UEFA final, the club still belongs to SDM, we got trounced by Man U, Bouguerra left years ago, and we never signed Jelavic etc, etc, etc.

 

Anyway, we are a club who have more experience in Europe than most but rarely do much in Europe despite this. Rangers have rarely been a top European side and to expect us not to be so in the current financial climate, is hardly a revelation.

 

I'm glad I managed to see Rangers reach a european cup final because it won't happen again in my lifetime.

 

Depends how long you live but if I recall correctly, you didn't enjoy the last one anyway - and plenty of people said they'd rather we went out than play the way we did - well they got their wish.

 

We've only reached one in the last 39 years, so if it's another long wait, our current situation is hardly a significant factor.

[calscot 0]

How can we blame Scottish football and our coaching staff when we only had four Scots on the pitch at the beginning of the match? MacGregor was the first on the sheet and he's considered one of the best keepers in Europe. Then there's Wylde, who is very young but has a lot of people excited about him. Wallace has hardly been coached at our club and at the same time was considered a pretty good signing. That just leaves Broadfoot, a guy many think is reliable. Another youngster, Perry came on for Wallace and was considered a success with his recent call up to the team.

 

I can't see how Scotland or our coaching staff can be to blame for the other 8 players.

 

We also played Naismith and McCulloch in the last game - Naismith is considered one of our best players despite being Scottish - and has shown to be decent in Europe. McCulloch - well he mostly played in England including the EPL so I hardly think Scotland or our coaches are to blame for him.

 

The ironic thing is that one minute people are saying we should stuff our team with our young players, the next thing is that young Scottish players are crap and so are our staff who coach them...

 

Scottish football may not be on a high at the moment but some of the knee jerk, finger pointing just doesn't make any sense.

 

I'd like people to answer why they think Scottish players should be any better than the top Swedish or Slovenian players? I can't see why and from what I've seen from Rangers games, although they are not much better, they are no worse - just less lucky or ruthless in front of goal.

[johnnyk 158]

We only had 4 playing last night but the first game against Malmo we had 6 Scottish players starting and 5 on the bench. The return leg we had 5 starting and 4 on the bench. First game against Maribor we had 5 starting and 5 on the bench. This is basically half the team starting that is Scottish so I do think Scotland does have a problem and not much quality players and it's not just this season. As you said McGregor is a great keeper but didn't have brilliant games either. Broadfoot is not good enough IMO and makes too many mistakes, Lee McCulloch doesn't give anything really far too defensive, Whittaker cost us goals on both the Malmo games and potentially the tie in his sending off. Wallace wasn't great at both goals in the first Maribor game. Naismith wouldn't shut up and got himself subbed before he got sent off in the first Maribor game, I am not saying it's all their fault as it's not but most of out Scottish players are just not good enough in Europe anyway.

 

Surely the way we coach these players and train them is a big factor on the way they are performing for us?

 

I also think we have missed Davie Weir, we lost some poor goals in those games that don't happen too often when he is playing.

[johnnyk 158]

Maybe other countries train longer than we do? Don't we only train for a few hours in the morning then players can go home or wherever?

 

I would love to do what they're doing for a living but to have the best facilities available to you would be even better, I would make them train longer with a ball at their feet, practice corners, free kicks, moving off the ball both offensively and defensively it's not too much to ask for from these overpaid sport stars is it?

[Gazza_8 233]

If we're slowly falling then we're right at the start of the fall. It's only a four seasons since we were in the UEFA Cup final and only getting beat in one leg by Barcelona due to them blatantly cheating. We were beating the French champions 3-0 and putting a lot of decent clubs with more money to the sword. That was one of the best European campaigns in our history and the best in the last quarter of a century.

 

I hardly think the sole reason Barca beat us was because they blatantly cheated. Yes, it was a factor but c'mon seriously? Yes, we beat Lyon away from home, Sporting Lisbon away from home and drew with Fiorentina away from home amongst others but on the flip side we lost to Kaunas, Malmo and Maribor amongst others. What I think you're getting at is that we're punching above our weight in europe but I absolutely disagree. We may have had our best European campaign recently but we've also had a few shockers either side of it.

 

Seems to me that far from being a steady decline, we are fluctuating up and down through the years which suggests that we could easily have a good run again next year.

 

Hopefully we can manage a decent run next season and pass expectation by reaching the group stages of the CL (extremely doubtful) or the EL (doubtful). However, we may also have another dreadful qualifying campaign. It's anyones guess as to which way it would go and to think otherwise is a tad silly.

 

If you look at Rangers' European history, it's been the same throughout the decades with far more disappointment than seasons to cheer about. I think Scotland were 26th about 1997 and after a while we were back up to a peak of 9th and hovered around the 11 mark for quite a while.

 

Are you talking about the national team here or Rangers?

 

It's been a horrendous few years for Scotland since our UEFA final with only our run last year contributing. Our non-OF teams have been incredibly poor but what hasn't helped is that Celtic have been worse than us lately. However, most years the majority of our coefficient points are gained by the OF and we just need both of them to bounce back and have some good runs for a few years. Their points are watered down by the number of teams we have in Europe so we were hit badly when we had six teams competing. At least we'll now have less teams to divide the total by.

 

There are worse teams than Rangers and Celtic in the qualifying rounds yet they progress. Something must be wrong at both clubs? Also, do we really expect Hearts, Motherwell, Dundee United etc to progress into the group stages? Nah, me neither. Blaming the smaller clubs for our poor co-efficient isn't really an excuse as no reaosnably sane person expects them to qualify into the group stages.

 

Gone are the days since we played someone like Valetta as they are usually now eliminated before we can meet them - because our ranking is too high! I think that's counter to your own argument...

 

What about Alania Vladikavkaz then? We stuffed them 10-3 on aggregate back in 1996 and they were knocked out of the EL last night too. Would we beat them by the same score if we played them now? Doubt it.

 

They have a rookie manager who seems a bit clueless in Europe. If we win the league again, they'll surely have a new manager next year. If not, then he might actually learn from his mistakes.

 

Same could be said for McCoist.

 

You must have watched four different games than me. Overall I think we were a much better footballing team than both the Swedish and Slovenian champions. Unfortunately, we didn't turn better football into results. I think all you can say they were better than us at, was sticking the ball in the net. However, we out passed them, out manoeuvred them, out touched them and were the dominant team. I really don't know how you can say differently.

 

I don't think I did watch 4 different games then you. Two games v Malmo and two games v Maribor. That the same games you watched? Maribor and Malmo were both comfortable on the ball and when pressed by our players they were able to look up and find a pass because their colleagues were able to find space to make themselves available for the pass. Last night, we had to pass the ball back the way or lump the ball forward because no one made themselves available for a pass.

 

What we lacked was not technique, it was a winning mentality. People didn't appreciate it under Walter but now it's gone, we're playing "nicer" football but as has been pointed out many times, that doesn't always get results. The fact is, when we lose, people only remember it as crap football.

 

We totally lacked technique last night and a plan B. Sorry, we did have a plan B - lump it up the park in the hope that Jelavic wins it in the air. Jelavic, a player who we bought for �£4m, has a good touch, good movement and some creativity yet we lump high balls upto him. No wonder he's not been himself of late! The fact is, when we lose, people know we've played poorly. It's nothing to do with playing nice or crap football. Every game is treated individually, not compared to others.

 

We may now seem an easier draw but whether we struggle in future is anyone guess based on our historical record. We WILL struggle against the richer clubs but what people have to realise is that the Swedish and Slovenian champs are our natural peers - wealthy, modern countries of around 5M people. It's an arrogance to think they are the minnows.

 

I wasn't talking about Maribor or Malmo being minnows of European football but we should be beating them. When we drew Malmo, people on here were confident we'd beat them. When we drew Maribor, people on here were confident we'd beat them too. Whereas others weren't as confident and quite rightly. Sometimes people need to take off the blue tinted specs and have a drink of reality. We aren't good enough to compete in the CL these days. The EL is our level and even that's at a push.

 

Should we call you "Mystic Gav"? People have been trying to sound sage and negatively predict the future like this for the last four years and have looked like idiots time and again. According to some we have not won the last three leagues in a row - or the cups, we didn't get to the UEFA final, the club still belongs to SDM, we got trounced by Man U, Bouguerra left years ago, and we never signed Jelavic etc, etc, etc.

 

I have no idea what you're getting at here. According to some, we haven't won the league in the last 3 season etc etc?

 

Anyway, we are a club who have more experience in Europe than most but rarely do much in Europe despite this. Rangers have rarely been a top European side and to expect us not to be so in the current financial climate, is hardly a revelation.

 

Experience doesn't automatically mean you qualify for the latter stages as has been proven by Malmo and Maribor. Experience means nothing!!

 

Depends how long you live but if I recall correctly, you didn't enjoy the last one anyway - and plenty of people said they'd rather we went out than play the way we did - well they got their wish.

 

Get a grip. I never enjoyed the last one? You've sunk to new levels of despair. I had my opinions on our style of play during our UEFA Cup run in 2008. What a shitty dig you made there.

[metlika 0]

Maybe other countries train longer than we do? Don't we only train for a few hours in the morning then players can go home or wherever?

 

I would love to do what they're doing for a living but to have the best facilities available to you would be even better, I would make them train longer with a ball at their feet, practice corners, free kicks, moving off the ball both offensively and defensively it's not too much to ask for from these overpaid sport stars is it?

 

Probably another issue is boozing.

 

Our Set pieces are woeful I think we need some foreign technical coach to add something different from the rest of the staff.

 

They probably goto the gym after lunch but after that I would say the players are free obviously we can't over work the players and double sessions wouldn't work.

[Gazza_8 233]

Probably another issue is boozing.

 

And Monster Munch.

[metlika 0]

And Monster Munch.

 

Maybe... don't they get their lunch at Murray Park ans surely that should be good for them? Diet might be an issue but some players would know what to do.

[Juancornetto 1]

The Scottish game has not progressed in the last 20 years, and by that I mean the style and technique that is coached and bought by our clubs. The game last night highlighted the lack of touch these players have, they have to take two or three touches on the ball before making a pass, meanwhile the opposition seem to be able to zip the ball about between them at will. The number of times we lost the ball in the final 3rd only to watch the ball move effortlessly between their players up the park was frightening, and they are a mediocre team.

 

Championship sides in England have better quality players with better technique and the vast majority of them are British so it's not a problem that crosses the border. The blood and thunder approach to football in this country will only die out if we coach kids better from an early age.

[johnnyk 158]

I've nothing against players diets and drinking, some obviously handle it better than others and if they perform well then they can eat and drink what they want. But if I was being paid as much as they are and could potentially earn more if you better yourself each season, and given that it could be a short career, I would certainly eat better and drink less and train harder to do the best I could.