The Seppuku of an internet blogger

[amms 0]

I don't really see how those clubs aren't bankrolled though. Ok, so they're not bankrolled by individual "suger daddy" businessmen owning and investing in each club, but it's almost impossible to say they aren't bankrolled when yearly Bundesliga revenues are in excess of 2 billion euro, the majority of which comes from sponsorship and broadcasting. I don't know the exact figure, but IIRC the Bundesliga match-day revenues only account for about 25-30% of overall revenue with the rest coming from sponsorship and broadcasting which means the league's getting something like €1.5bn handed to it on a golden plate.

 

Yes, it's not a system where the clubs are bankrolled in the traditional sense, but such vast levels of financial support are exactly what allow them their freedom and ownership structures whilst maintaining high levels of success. A state of the art 70k+ seat stadium that sells out every home game and having over 200k club members certainly helps a club like Bayern too, but it's highly doubtful whether they'd have those if they hadn't been given so much financial support over the years.

 

Likewise, would the Bundesliga itself have anywhere near the level of support (highest average attendances in Europe) if it hadn't had so much money thrown into it? IIRC, Bayern have been getting considerably more than 50% of their annual revenue from sponsorship for a number of years, so where would they be without it?

 

Bayern are one of the 'superclubs' of world football, from my perspective I was comparing them to Man U/City, Real and Barca rather than us. I accept they aren't some underdog but they are a good example of a well run, solvent, fan-connected football club who are successful. Unlike many of their genuine competitors on a European basis they generate their own income. Sponsorship is a fairly well established part of income for all football clubs, from the smallest to the largest. My point was they aren't a Sheik or Oligarch's plaything or carrying more debt than Greece.

 

I think the Bundesliga would still have the support, obviously success does attract more fans but German clubs have tremendous connections with their fanbase. That breeds loyalty and engagement, throw in world class players and genuine competition and you've a pretty decent recipe for success. Well, until Andy's dystopia comes to pass at least...

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Bluntly, what matters is having money, not where it comes from. Ideally it would be clean but if it has to be dirty, so be it. It's a dirty war.

 

All very heroicly despondent in a "i've-had-too-much-to-drink-tonight-but-I'll-be-back-in-the-trenches-tomorrow" kind of way.

You don't believe that nonsense and nobody else believes you believe that.

 

I'm guessing you have kids, Andy. I'm also guessing that you're teaching them that personal worth and dignity is far more important than financial wealth - and I'm guessing that you don't add the caveat..."oh, by the way, except for footballl".

[The Real PapaBear 0]

All fair points but even in Germany, the tripartite business model involving management, government and workers is breaking down even as we write; Fr.Merkel's desire to impose Thatcherism on her country will see it, too, move toward the model where the gaining of capital rather than the means of gaining it is all that matters. I can see no reason why the German municipalities will be able to resist when the full power of the federal govt. is turned on them: assuming the CDU follow through on their market led reforms, when the central funding is cut things like community partnerships in sport will be amongst the first to go, directly affecting football clubs.

 

Maybe the Lander will be able to mobilise regional feeling to the extent that they can fight off such things, but a glance across Europe in the last two decades does not fill the left-inclined onlooker with much cause for hope. Maybe some civic minded German citizen can even take it to the BVfG and get a ruling...I'm not optimistic.

 

Give it five years and I think we'll see Arab and Russian money in the Bundesliga as well. dB will know more about the nuts and bolts of this than I, mind you.

 

I don't disagree with your views, but I don't think we can operate as the sole 'Islamic Bank', so to speak, in British football.

 

You may be right about the arrival of foreign money into the Bundesliga - time will tell about that- but I think you understimate the German sense of regionalism. The modern day BRD is so strong precisely because of regionalism. In the absense of a capital city, post-1945, power developed in the different regions of West Germany, so that Frankfurt, Munich, Cologne/Dusseldorf, Hamburg all became cities of relatively equal importance and power. This, of course, spread out into their respective Laender - and even Laender which had no super city, such as Baden Wuerttemberg had places like Stuttgart and Mannheim, which are probably equivalent to the GNP of Belgium in themselves. You also underestimate the German sense of doing things properly and, more importantly, of community. They are, in my experience, every bit as motivated as the British by money, but the difference lies in their sense of civic responsibility and an awareness that theirs is a quality-based culture and that they will only lose out in any race to the bottom.

The Germans, for all their faults, are not a stupid people. They tend to be very aware of their own history and that of their closest European neighbours and I don't imagine that they will allow themselves to be lead into a thatcherist, nihilistic (is that tautology or redundancy?) cul-de-sac. They tried unthinkingly follwing a strong leader once before with mixed results.

[andy steel 0]

That would be my hope, too, TRPB.

 

I like watching the Bundesliga and seeing each team or stadium sponsored by a strong local industry, usually a worldwide brand. Ties between such companies and their locality can only protect such communal feeling.

 

I admire Germany and Germans enormously, with the obvious historical caveats, and hope that you are correct - but I'd have said that Britain, too, was a solidly community based society in the 1960's (despite all that cobblers about the sexual revolution etc - that must have applied to about 2% of the UK, if that) and it didn't take much to destroy it - just plain old self interest.

[D'Artagnan 173]

Sorry guys, in my book, any discussion of morality in the context of Scottish football is totally misplaced.

The way I see it is that morality plays no part whatsoever in the sordid operation of our media, our larger clubs, their fan bases or particularly our governing bodies.

For a long time now we have been swimming in an extremely filthy pond and it's becoming filthier by the day.

 

Bluebear I think in the "evolution" of the discussion has somewhat distorted my original intent - or maybe I just didnt explain it very well - but my use of the word morality was regarding the actions of the warring factions who had examined the other sides candidates thoroughly and are not short in exposing any apparent character of integrity flaws.

 

And yet both sides appear to rally round DK with no such examination or concern.

[the gunslinger 3,366]

as others have said all that matters is beating celtc. within reason of course. we shouldn't cheat or take drug money or whatever but essentially all that matters is beating celtc.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

- but I'd have said that Britain, too, was a solidly community based society in the 1960's (despite all that cobblers about the sexual revolution etc - that must have applied to about 2% of the UK, if that) and it didn't take much to destroy it - just plain old self interest.

 

I think you do the Conservatives and their paymasters a great disservice. The annihilation of Britain's working class didn't just happen by chance, y'know. These chaps put an enormous amount of thought and effort into our destruction - give them some credit.

[Zappa 0]

Bluebear I think in the "evolution" of the discussion has somewhat distorted my original intent - or maybe I just didnt explain it very well - but my use of the word morality was regarding the actions of the warring factions who had examined the other sides candidates thoroughly and are not short in exposing any apparent character of integrity flaws.

 

And yet both sides appear to rally round DK with no such examination or concern.

 

I think it's quite the opposite D'Art because we already know a lot more about DK than we do any of the new people on the scene. His previous investment and status as a non-exec director on the board combined with the high profile of his SA tax cases have meant that DK has been under scrutiny for years now, not days, weeks or months.

 

I bet there's quite a few Bears out there like myself who've spent many hours reading articles written in SA about DK and there's bound to be a lot of differing views. I actually changed my views on him after a lengthy reading session a couple of years ago (before the administration) and I've since topped it up with a fair amount of reading on the subject of corruption within the SA government and it's revenue service, SARS.

 

The SA press, business journals and magazines have written plenty about DK and over the years quite a number of articles have been posted on the forums and discussed, while many others which weren't posted (due to them being written in SA and slipping under our day-to-day radar) are nonetheless still out there in the public domain for us all to track down and read.

[Zappa 0]

Bayern are one of the 'superclubs' of world football, from my perspective I was comparing them to Man U/City, Real and Barca rather than us. I accept they aren't some underdog but they are a good example of a well run, solvent, fan-connected football club who are successful. Unlike many of their genuine competitors on a European basis they generate their own income. Sponsorship is a fairly well established part of income for all football clubs, from the smallest to the largest. My point was they aren't a Sheik or Oligarch's plaything or carrying more debt than Greece.

 

I think the Bundesliga would still have the support, obviously success does attract more fans but German clubs have tremendous connections with their fanbase. That breeds loyalty and engagement, throw in world class players and genuine competition and you've a pretty decent recipe for success. Well, until Andy's dystopia comes to pass at least...

 

As a sidenote, get a read of the 2013 Bundesliga Report if you haven't already. It's outdated now since it came out in January and in terms of financial figures it relates to previous seasons, but it's still an interesting read. - http://static.bundesliga.com/media/native/autosync/report_2013_gb_72dpi.pdf

[crucible 0]

King was given an option payment of the fines imposed or 84 years in jail, he clearly seen the benefit of paying up for his morals.