Born Under A Union Flag : A Response

[BEARGER 1,829]

See the "tims are voting yes" diatribe is now on GERSNET. People using that as a reason to vote no, dearie me.

[Bluedell 5,329]

People using that as a reason to vote no, dearie me.

 

Who is doing that?

[Tannochsidebear 2,306]

See the "tims are voting yes" diatribe is now on GERSNET. People using that as a reason to vote no, dearie me.

 

I dont see anybody on here saying that at all.

Nobody needs that as a reason for voting NO, there are already many many reasons to vote no without bringing football tribal rivalry into it.

[Rangersitis 0]

See the "tims are voting yes" diatribe is now on GERSNET. People using that as a reason to vote no, dearie me.

 

You must be the 'reading between the lines' world champion.

[Ser Barristan Selmy 222]

Now none of us would associate supporting the British army with the Tims or with overt Unionism yet I'd venture more of their support are committed to voting 'No' in September than ours.

What on earth are you basing this on?

[Ser Barristan Selmy 222]

We make a big deal about being THE unionist club and yet our fiercest rivals stand beside us on this issue and have done so for many decades. They are at least as enthusiastic about the Union as we are.

What :confused:

[Hildy 0]

Our Celtic-minded friends have been wooed by the nationalists in recent years because they are perceived to be the nearest thing to a block vote in Scotland.

 

In a referendum, getting this vote to switch sides would likely heavily influence the outcome. Amongst younger Celtic fans, a nationalist anti-English movement has a certain appeal, but Celtic-minded roots in the unionist Labour Party are just to deep to abandon. The Scottish Celtic-minded vote has been entrenched Labour for decades. It will not easily give up a party that it believes it owns in the west of Scotland.

 

Salmond has had an effect though - he is utterly despised by every Celtic-minded person I know.

[Ser Barristan Selmy 222]

I don't know any Celtic fan voting no.

[Hildy 0]

As we know, there are very long memories in the Celtic-minded ranks, and episodes like this are probably well remembered by the likes of Michael Kelly, John Reid and George Galloway:

 

Letters reveal SNP crisis over ‘bigoted’ president’s anti-Catholic diatribes (From The Times 11-9-2010)

 

It was February 1982 and Pope John Paul II’s pastoral visit to Scotland was just months away. The Vatican’s diplomatic representative to the United Kingdom had recently been upgraded to ambassadorial rank and Billy Wolfe, leader of the SNP from 1969-79 and a Kirk elder, wrote to*Life and Work*– the “pre-eminent voice of the Church of Scotland” – to voice his opposition.

 

The Vatican, he argued, was “not much larger than a town’s public park” and its population (“I understand, nearly all priests”) “only about 700”. As such, it was “neither a city nor a state” and therefore not entitled to send a diplomatic representative to the “Protestant United Kingdom”. Furthermore, Wolfe complained that the Roman Catholic Church had failed to consult Scotland’s national church.

 

From an ordinary member of the SNP this letter might have gone un-noticed, but Wolfe was the party’s president, a former leader and one of its most respected elder statesman. Papers belonging to Gordon Wilson, Wolfe’s successor as National Convener of the SNP, have revealed for the first time the extent of a row which cast a sectarian shadow over the party and ultimately destroyed Wolfe’s political career.

 

Leading SNP figures were appalled. Winnie Ewing forwarded press coverage of Wolfe’s remarks to Wilson and his fellow MP Donald Stewart with the note: “Is the SNP now part of the Orange Movement?” And when the*Daily Record*conflated Wolfe’s views with the SNP’s, Wilson took the unusual step of issuing a statement publicly repudiating Wolfe’s “personal opinions”.

 

Wolfe refused to apologise or resign as president, arguing instead that the SNP ought to remain “neutral” on the Pope’s visit rather than welcoming it, as Wilson had already done. “If the slogan ‘Home Rule is Rome Rule’ becomes widely current again”, Wolfe wrote to Wilson privately, “it will become impossible for us to get a really significant and secure support out of the 80% of the population who are non-R.C.’s."

 

Wolfe then set out his “constitutional and political” reasons for opposing the Papal visit in a lengthy memo that he planned to publish. This argued that the visit was a “clear violation of the statutes establishing the U.K. and securing the Protestant Religion in both England and Scotland”. “The aim of the R.C. Church was and is world domination in the belief that the Pope is destined to rule over all nations and all men,” added Wolfe. “Who will benefit from a State visit to these countries by the Pope? From a Protestant point of view, certainly not the non-R.C. majorities in them."

 

He went on to describe the Roman Catholic church as the world’s “largest and most widespread political organisation” which had “centuries of experience, infinite patience and Machiavellian skill, using good or evil, wealth or poverty, left or right political parties, black men or white men, in fact any person, organisation or circumstance which is likely to serve the ultimate aim of the church”.

 

Wilson, clearly appalled, replied that he “disagreed completely with your personal view” and urged him not to publish something that “would be very damaging to the Party”. The Glasgow Hillhead by-election – in which Roy Jenkins would make his political comeback – was just weeks away and Wilson dreaded the electoral consequences of another intervention from Wolfe.

 

The row then died down, although the SNP lost its deposit in the Hillhead by-election. Then, the following month, Wolfe wrote another letter, this time to the*Scotsman, expressing concern that the predominantly Protestant Falkland islanders might fall under the control of a “cruel and ruthless Fascist dictatorship of a Roman Catholic State”. Coming as it did on the eve of elections to Scotland’s regional local authorities, the SNP was once again plunged into crisis.

 

Alan McKinney, the SNP’s National Organiser, told Wolfe that his “continuing attack on the Roman Catholic Church is causing great concern within the Party”. “I have spent the last three hours,” he wrote, “dealing with telephone calls from Press, ministers, Nationalists and members of the public attempting to staunch the wound you have opened – an analogy which fits one view expressed: ‘amputation’.”

 

Gordon Wilson was also furious, writing to Wolfe to condemn his “bigoted anti-catholic views” and asking him to resign as party president. Wilson also wrote to Cardinal Gray, who had been asked to comment on Wolfe’s Falklands comments, to apologise. Gray replied graciously, expressing concern that “Mr. Wolfe’s letter might have caused problems for Catholics who are members of the S.N.P. or those who have sympathy with the Party’s aims and policy”.

 

Although Wolfe refused to resign as president, he did agree to withdraw his nomination for another term. As one journalist commented, it was “sad to see such a distinguished political career end over statements so very much out of character”, while Wolfe would not be re-elected to party office for another 16 years. Later he expressed genuine regret about his comments while ironically his second wife, Kate Mac-Ateer, was a Catholic.

 

Nevertheless it planted a suspicion that the SNP was sectarian, something that still lingered in 1994 when the party endured the Monklands East by-election. It then took the efforts of Alex Salmond to correct the damage, forging deep links with the Catholic Church in Scotland, while “warmly” welcoming this month’s visit which he predicted would be a “wonderful occasion”. Scotland, not to mention perceptions of the SNP, have changed a lot in 28 years.

 

DAVID TORRANCE

 

http://davidtorrance.com/letters-reveal-snp-crisi-over-bigoted-presidents-anti-catholic-diatribes-from-the-times-11-9-2010/

 

Perceptions have indeed changed, but for the Celtic-minded, I seriously doubt if they have changed enough.

[barca72 440]

The second link didn't work for me, and while there are issues surrounding public funding of such an event, attempting to link a republican shindig in Ardoyne to likely voting patterns in a Scottish Independence poll is a bit of a stretch.

 

That post was offered to refute the idea that the east enders(most) would have any affection for the British Army or the Union.

Do you think that all of that crowd was made up of Ulster tims or maybe there were some tims there from Scotland?