Big Players Step Up

[Tannochsidebear 2,320]

Money doesn't guarantee you success. Like db said: does that not then belittle the titles we won previously? We have the same ambition, just perhaps differ in our appreciation of our current predicament. I think it's a bit unrealistic and arrogant to assume we should be cruising to the title--no matter how much I may wish it!

 

 

 

Again, I feel you are a wee bit unrealistic in your expectations. They have most certainly under-performed, but I still feel they deserve credit for getting promotion--if in fact we do get promotion! They are not the class of player we had previously. They are average SPL players at best, yet you expect the same level as before.

 

 

 

I agree. But surely he deserves credit for it his good performances, just like he deserves criticism for the bad?

 

 

 

I agree. Our opinions of individual players are subjective, so it's difficult to be objective. I would actually keep most of them, except Daly, Simonsen and Hutton. Now, that doesn't mean I want them to be in the starting 11 next year, because I don't, but I believe it's unrealistic to assume we can completely replace them all. They'd be decent squad players. There could be a hint of a decent foundation there, if we can just improve the team with some new/better players. I think the main issue has been poor management; sort of the management and I think you'd see a completely different set of players. Most have the potential to be better with a better manager, and a smattering of new/better players to improve the squad.

 

 

 

Is that not paradoxical that you see them as abject failures, not worthy to wear the jersey and with no redeeming quality, but you still expect them to walk through the play-off against teams that have battered us in the past? It has been an awful season, but I think your expectations are 5 years out of date.

 

While I respect your posts and opinion, I dont agree at all with your argument here!

 

Money in football buys you a certain standard of player. We have a standard of player that is much better than any of our league rivals. The players, and managers, have pretty much entirely underperformed with a few notable exceptions. On that basis I want them removed from our squad.

 

It is entirely feasible to totally revamp the squad. Advocaat was left 3 first team players from Smith in 1998, McCoist was left with around 6 first team players in 2012. It happens. On both occasions we won the league comfortably the following season (although there the comparisons between 1999 & 2013 end!!). It can be done with the right infrastructure and management. These players have had their chance and blown it. Some players have had more than one chance. They do not deserve another on our payroll.

 

My expectations are based entirely on the relevant squads of players. Our squad is full of top level experienced players with a smattering of full internationalists, and we will be playing a Motherwell side who have abjectly failed to overcome two of their 10 rivals (I exclude celtic) to avoid the play off spot. In league play-offs I would always favour the side from the lower league as they have been used to winning whereas the team from the higher league have been losing most weeks. Form is the overriding factor and we should easily beat this Motherwell side with some to spare. That does not give our players the right to brag about it, as they have failed to win a title they should have had won in March, if they had applied themselves properly and been coached and managed properly. The fact you would keep Jig alone is worthy of mockery (surely an error in your post!!?) and I dont see that Hutton has been worse than Black for example. Boyd was a hero of mine first time around but anyone can see he has failed this season and admits himself he wont be around next season as that is the price of failure. I wish others were as honest.

[der Berliner 3,283]

The titles we have won have been with our main rivals in the league. Most leagues in Europe have a two horse race most years, although most top leagues will have a variable two teams at times. Last years La Liga where 3 teams could win it going into the final couple of games was the exception rather than the rule. Your comparison is futile. You know exactly the point I am making so either argue against it or leave it, dont be so stupid as to try to argue it with a completely irrelevant point. That is beneath you DB.

 

I was not talking about two or three horse races, but the money involved. The monetary gulf between the the top 4 or 5 teams in the top leagues isn't that great, be it Germany, Italy, France or Spain. That 10-times of the rest stuff you marked out. Bayern have thrown a title away, largely not because of the better opposition on the park, but because despite having excellent ressources back then, their team did not click, their manager didn't do good enough and the like. As I said, various factors come together here and just pointing out a stunning budget as opposed to the rest in the league is saying rather little. We have inherited a woeful budget in SFL 3, and shambolic off-field activity did not help. We played some woeful football, still strolled the league statswise. The budget eased somewhat, we got in 9 freebies, shed others for League One. Budget still woeful, the team more or less clicked (despite not playing decent football) and we strolled the league even more. This season, the budget - all the same inherited stuff plus more rubbish from you know who - is sure far greater than much of the rest in the Championship (BTW, we are Rangers, not Alloa, so our budget and demands are somewhat different from the off), we had nearly the same team as last season, but neither did they click, nor was the manager(s) clicking with them - for one reason or another. Much like what happened to Bayern back then, the year they were dupped FC Hollywood. Add the turmoil off the field for us ... and you have some factors that give a reason why "budget" - no matter how much greater than the rest - is just one factor of many.

 

There is no doubt whatsoever that quite a few of our players, at times even more so than the manager(s), were at fault for our comparatively dismal performances. So you sure did not get value for money (even if money "only" means wages, not transfer fees). Yet, if these players actually start rising to the occasion again, why not giving them credit for it? Or would you tell a firefighter jumping into a burning house and saving a grandma that he's doing just what is expected from him? So he doesn't need a grateful pat on the back?

 

On a sidenote, debate raged about this budget stuff for ages. With regards to the topic at hand then, what could reasonably (sic!) have been made different back then? That is with regard to ongoing contracts, quality players willing to come to us in SFL 3, League One or the like? "Reasonably" with regard to: no remaining youngsters could have brought in stuff (remind yourself of the SFL 3 season's second half), next to no scouting, essentially freebies only signings, people willing to go to the 4th or 3rd tier of the Scottish (!) game (and for what sort of compensation) etc. pp.. All factors that contributed. Board and managers did what they did and at the end of the day, we're looking at the third straight promotion, with essentially the same team for two seasons running.

 

IMHO, had we had different owners, we would have seen far better and probably more expansive players playing for us still, as IPO money and season ticket money would have been used differently or would actually have flowed into the club itself. The only difference it would have made is that more of us would be swooning over players doing their job against weaker opposition while others point out that this is what has to be expected, as they earn much more et al. Yay!

 

You know, hindsight is a marvellous thing. Thus, one could come up saying that we should have invested in youth (those willing to come to us) and play youngsters (we used 19 in SFL 3) and build a team from scratch and all the other good and reaonable ideas that swirled about. Nothing, i.e. absolutely nothing would tell us whether that would have blasted off as a success or that this youthful and talented side would never had encountered a season like we have had now. And had these chaps not delivered and instantly - you know, we are talking about Rangers here - rest assured that hell would have broken lose in more aspect than just one.

 

I'll sure be glad if we see the back of some of our players come summer. But likewise I will remember most of them as the were willing to come to Rangers FC and get us out of the leagues we were in. Some might have come for money alone, but all did what they did and many others did not even consider it. Which we should also keep in mind.

[Rousseau 9,485]

Money in football buys you a certain standard of player. We have a standard of player that is much better than any of our league rivals. The players, and managers, have pretty much entirely underperformed with a few notable exceptions. On that basis I want them removed from our squad.

 

I agree with the two premises: (1) we have a better standard of player; and (2) we have under-performed. However, I disagree with your conclusion. It does not necessarily follow that they are inherently not good enough--form is temporary, class is permanent etc. I believe a better manager can get better things from them. Secondly, money may indeed buy us a better calibre of player, but it doesn't then follow that they should romp to the title. I think we disagree on the basis of our failure. You imply that it's the players fault entirely, whereas I believe the fault lies with the management. Stories abound in football of poor sides being miraculously transformed into decent sides with a change of manager.

 

It is entirely feasible to totally revamp the squad. Advocaat was left 3 first team players from Smith in 1998, McCoist was left with around 6 first team players in 2012. It happens. On both occasions we won the league comfortably the following season (although there the comparisons between 1999 & 2013 end!!). It can be done with the right infrastructure and management. These players have had their chance and blown it. Some players have had more than one chance. They do not deserve another on our payroll.

 

I'm not disputing that, but I am stating that it can't be done without some serious expenditure (£35 Million in 1998-99). That sort of expenditure is wholly unrealistic in our current situation. The rebuilds you reference were forced because of retirements and contract cancellations. At this juncture we have a 'basic' squad and I think it would be naive, foolish and presumptuous to suggest we should be gutting the squad. I'm not denying it needs improving, simply added to, or refined. (And, actually on both occasions we won the league because there was no challenge--John Barnes and East Stirling!) Again, your opinion that the players have had their chance is based on our fundamental disagreement which I outlined above (on the basis of our failure).

 

My expectations are based entirely on the relevant squads of players. Our squad is full of top level experienced players with a smattering of full internationalists, and we will be playing a Motherwell side who have abjectly failed to overcome two of their 10 rivals (I exclude celtic) to avoid the play off spot. In league play-offs I would always favour the side from the lower league as they have been used to winning whereas the team from the higher league have been losing most weeks. Form is the overriding factor and we should easily beat this Motherwell side with some to spare. That does not give our players the right to brag about it, as they have failed to win a title they should have had won in March, if they had applied themselves properly and been coached and managed properly. The fact you would keep Jig alone is worthy of mockery (surely an error in your post!!?) and I dont see that Hutton has been worse than Black for example. Boyd was a hero of mine first time around but anyone can see he has failed this season and admits himself he wont be around next season as that is the price of failure. I wish others were as honest.

 

Yes, I agree we should be beating Motherwell; mainly because, as you said, we have the momentum, but it is not a certainty. I was suggesting your expectations in general are out of date, with regards to our league performance, not the Motherwell play-off game. Even with marginally better players with bigger wages, it doesn't then follow that we should be romping away with the league. Again, I think it's the management that should take the majority of the blame.

 

Oh, yes absolutely! Keeping Jig was an error!!

[Ser Barristan Selmy 222]

I agree with the two premises: (1) we have a better standard of player; and (2) we have under-performed. However, I disagree with your conclusion. It does not necessarily follow that they are inherently not good enough--form is temporary, class is permanent etc. I believe a better manager can get better things from them. Secondly, money may indeed buy us a better calibre of player, but it doesn't then follow that they should romp to the title. I think we disagree on the basis of our failure. You imply that it's the players fault entirely, whereas I believe the fault lies with the management. Stories abound in football of poor sides being miraculously transformed into decent sides with a change of manager.

 

 

 

I'm not disputing that, but I am stating that it can't be done without some serious expenditure (£35 Million in 1998-99). That sort of expenditure is wholly unrealistic in our current situation. The rebuilds you reference were forced because of retirements and contract cancellations. At this juncture we have a 'basic' squad and I think it would be naive, foolish and presumptuous to suggest we should be gutting the squad. I'm not denying it needs improving, simply added to, or refined. (And, actually on both occasions we won the league because there was no challenge--John Barnes and East Stirling!) Again, your opinion that the players have had their chance is based on our fundamental disagreement which I outlined above (on the basis of our failure).

 

 

 

Yes, I agree we should be beating Motherwell; mainly because, as you said, we have the momentum, but it is not a certainty. I was suggesting your expectations in general are out of date, with regards to our league performance, not the Motherwell play-off game. Even with marginally better players with bigger wages, it doesn't then follow that we should be romping away with the league. Again, I think it's the management that should take the majority of the blame.

 

Oh, yes absolutely! Keeping Jig was an error!!

Our squad absolutely needs gutted. Which players do you think have a future to play? Which players are good enough to be challenging Celtic and leading us back into Europe?

 

And of course we should have romped the Scottish second division. No doubt about that at all. We outspend the rest of the top 4 put together and frankly it's a joke we didn't run away with the league.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Ser Barristan Selmy

[jhunter 0]

Our squad absolutely needs gutted. Which players do you think have a future to play? Which players are good enough to be challenging Celtic and leading us back into Europe?

 

And of course we should have romped the Scottish second division. No doubt about that at all. We outspend the rest of the top 4 put together and frankly it's a joke we didn't run away with the league.

 

We need a whole new team to compete with celtc for the league let alone win it.

 

who exactly are people talking about staying and playing anything other than a bit part?

[ian1964 10,444]

Trying to judge/call the 'worst Rangers team ever' is a very difficult one mate. Our fans have been saying stuff like that ever since we landed in the bottom tier of Scottish football with numpties up front like Fran Sandaza & Kevin Kyle. I'd take Boyd & Miller over Sandaza and Kyle any day of the week even although Boyd & Miller haven't had a good season for us.

 

I agree with that mate,however the teams before this season won the leagues!,this team has humungously failed,even if we get promoted!,McCall has given us a chance.

As I have said before a few times now this season can't finish quick enough for me just to see the back of the majority of the players.

What players would I keep?, Murdoch and all the young players,McGregor just for being our best player all season consistently,and maybe Wallace who I think is vastly over rated,but would keep him,and that's about it!.

[colinstein 294]

We need a whole new team to compete with celtc for the league let alone win it.

 

who exactly are people talking about staying and playing anything other than a bit part?

 

haud yur hoarses...

 

buying success has not worked

it's got us where we are

splashing money on players isn't the answer

[ian1964 10,444]

haud yur hoarses...

 

buying success has not worked

it's got us where we are

splashing money on players isn't the answer

 

You only become the best team if you have the best players/team,with our current squad we can't compete in the top league,spending money on players is not why we are in our current situation! what do you suggest happens should we gain promotion?

[colinstein 294]

You only become the best team if you have the best players/team,with our current squad we can't compete in the top league,spending money on players is not why we are in our current situation! what do you suggest happens should we gain promotion?

 

no you don't

we bought the best players and couldn't even win the championship

we need a longer term view

[Ser Barristan Selmy 222]

haud yur hoarses...

 

buying success has not worked

it's got us where we are

splashing money on players isn't the answer

There is no way round the fact that our squad needs significant investment. If said investment does occur, hopefully the money is spent predominantly on younger players who can be developed and sold for a profit. I doubt there will be much money in the summer, so I'm presuming most players will be bosmans. I also want to see more of our youth players integrated and there needs to be investment there, along with other areas like scouting, coaching etc.

 

Splashing money on aging and poorly scouted players like we used to do certainly isn't the answer. With as poor a squad as we have though we're going to need a load of signings in the summer, if we are to get anywhere.