do you want smith to go?

[theboyharley 5]

I want him to go, but only if there is someone better going to come in. I dont think the likes of Davies would take us forward and candidates like Mowbray wouldnt come as i think he'd want a crack at the premiership.

 

He should be given this season and if results/tactics dont change and we are losing ground in the league, he should go.

[maineflyer 0]

Failure demands its own reward and it's time Smith got what he richly deserves.

 

Tuesday evening showed us all exactly what state the team is in. We all saw it, there was no ambiguity and no doubt how bad we were. Given the stark clarity of the situation, given the absence of doubt, is it not right that someone should assume responsibility? That someone being the manager.

 

The question for me is this. If Walter Smith is man enough to sit in Bill Struth's chair, is he also man enough to accept the consequences of the responsibility he bears and resign now? Or is he just another part of Murray's world where you are free to say one thing and do another.

[bmck 117]

Failure demands its own reward and it's time Smith got what he richly deserves.

 

i think getting us to our first european final in a million years means that he doesn't deserve a reactionary sacking - we've already started down the reactionary sacking road with le guen - regicide's addictive, but it's never really worked out well for the countries that have started it.

 

he deserves, at very least, time to change.

 

Tuesday evening showed us all exactly what state the team is in. We all saw it, there was no ambiguity and no doubt how bad we were. Given the stark clarity of the situation, given the absence of doubt, is it not right that someone should assume responsibility? That someone being the manager.

 

that was one of the worst results in the club's history, but if you start sacking after every bad result you never have anyone long enough to build a team. taking responsibility doesn't mean resigning - it means getting it sorted quickly. sacking a manager before the first kick of a domestic ball since he got you to a european final will make us more of a laughing stock.

 

The question for me is this. If Walter Smith is man enough to sit in Bill Struth's chair, is he also man enough to accept the consequences of the responsibility he bears and resign now? Or is he just another part of Murray's world where you are free to say one thing and do another.

 

you're the one playing into murray's hands. i dont think murray would be too fussed if walter resigned as it would satisfy people like your demands for blood, and give him the light monetary load of another transition season.

 

walter's clearly erred - but he's given us what most of us haven't seen in our lifetime. to sack him before the season begins is just to hand another title to celtic.

[maineflyer 0]

i think getting us to our first european final in a million years means that he doesn't deserve a reactionary sacking - we've already started down the reactionary sacking road with le guen - regicide's addictive, but it's never really worked out well for the countries that have started it.

 

he deserves, at very least, time to change.

 

 

 

that was one of the worst results in the club's history, but if you start sacking after every bad result you never have anyone long enough to build a team. taking responsibility doesn't mean resigning - it means getting it sorted quickly. sacking a manager before the first kick of a domestic ball since he got you to a european final will make us more of a laughing stock.

 

 

 

you're the one playing into murray's hands. i dont think murray would be too fussed if walter resigned as it would satisfy people like your demands for blood, and give him the light monetary load of another transition season.

 

walter's clearly erred - but he's given us what most of us haven't seen in our lifetime. to sack him before the season begins is just to hand another title to celtic.

 

utter nonsense.

Basically, what you're saying is that as long as you do some good in the past, failure in the present should be forgiven. You also appear to base your arguement on a belief that Walter Smith will in fact turn this mess around in the future - without providing any reasons for this belief - other than Walter once did something you quite liked. Hell, you even appear to think Le Guen deserved more time, which in light of his achievements at Ibrox is bordering on the perverse.

 

Then, amazingly, you try to suggest that sacking Walter is unacceptable because it would bolster Murray's position.

 

Actually, I think you're just finding it hard to face up to difficult decisions. Walter isn't someone who just arrived at Ibrox. The players in the team today are Walter's pick. The tactics we have been employing are Walter's tactics. The backroom staff and the way they prepare this team are Walter's staff. If a year and a half down the line the best we can do is what we all witnessed on Tuesday, then I think it's fair to say that Walter has not only had the time you think fairness demands but that he has singularly failed in his task.

 

There then only remains the price of that failure and more time shouldn't be part of the severance package.

[bmck 117]

Basically, what you're saying is that as long as you do some good in the past, failure in the present should be forgiven.

 

no, that's a rephrasing of what i said that make it look silly and easily dismisable.

 

i'm saying that sacking a manager two seconds after one of the club's greatest achievements is reactionary - it's neither good for our current predicament or our worldwide standing or for the season ahead. the reason uefa are even running a "one of the biggest sides ever to fail to qualify" is because of ourstanding results in both champions league and uefa cup. last season raised our profile more than anything that's happened in recent history

 

You also appear to base your arguement on a belief that Walter Smith will in fact turn this mess around in the future - without providing any reasons for this belief - other than Walter once did something you quite liked. Hell, you even appear to think Le Guen deserved more time, which in light of his achievements at Ibrox is bordering on the perverse.

 

this is ridiculous - "you seem to think he can turn it around given only his track record for turning things around". i'm not sure if he'll turn it around, but i think he's our best chance for this season. and i think sacking him would do more damage for us as a club than giving him a chance to rectify his mistakes.

 

Then, amazingly, you try to suggest that sacking Walter us unacceptable because it would bolster Murray's position.

 

yes. that is what i said. walter smith's assignment itself was bolstering murray's position as it satisfied his lust for short termism. he'd be quite happy to sack smith to satisfy the howls for blood, appoint someone like super ally who'll get the average fan's backing for at least a year until he inevitably fucks up and murray will have another year where success can't really be demanded because its another transitionary period. it'll buy him some time without any major investment to get someone to buy the club.

 

Actually, I think you're just finding it hard to face up to difficult decisions. Walter isn't someone who just arrived at Ibrox.[ The players in the team today are Walter's pick. The tactics we have been employing are Walter's tactics. The backroom staff and the way they prepare this team are Walter's staff. If a year and a half down the line the best we can do is what we all witnessed on Tuesday, then I think it's fair to say that Walter has not only had the time you think fairness demand but that he has failed in his task.

 

that was the same picks, backroom staff, motivation that got us to our first european final in years. there's no excuses for the other night, but reactionary sackings are for tims and morons. it doesn't help in the short term, and it wont help in the long term because murray's not going to go scouring the globe for a worldclass manager as no-one will come as he's not going to be splashing the cash.

 

we'll agree to disagree.

[gisabeer 409]

And another thing. What manager (being realistic) do you think would have actually won us those two trophies?

 

if it wasnt for boyd we wouldnt have won them.

[calscot 0]

While I think failure reaps it's own rewards, so does success and sacking a manager a couple of months after getting to the UEFA cup final due to being out of the competition at the first hurdle really doesn't make sense. What it Walter's reward for his success?

 

I think we should take the mean which works out at two average seasons in Europe. Another way of looking at it, I think the final got him a get out of jail free card and he's just used it.

 

He now needs to be judged on the league as he's achieved the required haul of cups for two seasons already. So for Europe and the cups he's at 50% - just passable, but HAS to win the league to achieve 50% there.

 

So basically he's wiped out all his currency earned from last season in one fell swoop. Had he won the league he'd still be largely in credit.

 

If he is out of contention at any point this season, he should go. If he wins it, he'll have just achieved his 50% pass mark and so where we go from there depends on how his tenure is assessed qualitatively.

[Guest Mac]

bmck, i agree with what you've said in this thread. I'm gutted and still angry about what has happened but to get rid of WS now would be just handing another title to septic.

 

WS needs to look at his own tactics and the squad of players he has available to him and comeout fighting, i believe it would be best to give him the oppertunity to do this this season. If things have gone the way it went with PLG by November/December then its time to make plans but now at the start of the new league season WS knows that the title is the minimum that is expected, hell we were within a baws hair of the quadruple just a couple of months ago and this year there can be no excuses or mixed priorities with fixture pile-ups. If WS can get a bit of width and invention with some crosses flying in from the byeline wether that be from a 4-4-2, 4-5-1 or a 2-4-4 formation we could win this league with a bit of style & panash.

 

Hey, if not bin him in December get Ian Durrant in clear out the first team squad and play the U19's;)

 

Mac

[bmck 117]

aye, we definitely should let him and the whole board know how unacceptable this is - but in practical terms, i think sacking just now wouldn't be good, and in general decency terms, well, it's 50/50. if he hadn't been so abbrasive with the fans then i would have said that anyone who'd sack a manager who'd done that is an idiot: but there's something rotten there, and everyone picks up on it.

 

it's not about what would best appease our sense of anger, though, its about what makes us most likely to stop the tims going onto another league title. walter smith's obstinancy last season lost us the title, i think, but he's as good as we're going to get. he's unfortunately our best chance, like it or lump it. lets just hope he's got the balls to admit he's made mistakes and make changes.

[maineflyer 0]

bmck, i agree with what you've said in this thread. I'm gutted and still angry about what has happened but to get rid of WS now would be just handing another title to septic.

 

WS needs to look at his own tactics and the squad of players he has available to him and comeout fighting, i believe it would be best to give him the oppertunity to do this this season. If things have gone the way it went with PLG by November/December then its time to make plans but now at the start of the new league season WS knows that the title is the minimum that is expected, hell we were within a baws hair of the quadruple just a couple of months ago and this year there can be no excuses or mixed priorities with fixture pile-ups. If WS can get a bit of width and invention with some crosses flying in from the byeline wether that be from a 4-4-2, 4-5-1 or a 2-4-4 formation we could win this league with a bit of style & panash.

 

Hey, if not bin him in December get Ian Durrant in clear out the first team squad and play the U19's;)

 

Mac

Well, you may be right. I just don't think Smith is at the stage of his career where he is capable of fundamental change. Since we all apparently agree there needs to be a change to his negative tactics on the field of play, let's see if this starts against Falkirk on Saturday and continues thereafter. If, as I suspect, he continues with the dreadful negative approach of the last season, we might all be able to agree he should go. And since it will take him another couple of seasons and a bucket of money to change out his playing staff to allow a different style of play, the outcome seems inevitable.

 

More than anything, I see Smith as incapable of developing new young talent and being able to trust himself to bring them into the first team. His track record in this respect is appalling and this is something we desperately need to be able to do.