Ulster Day

[UCF2008 0]

There's no denying that this is a really awkward subject for some of us. I think we really need to take a look at what we all regard as being 'sectarian'. It seems to me that some of us have the opinion that 'sectarianism' is purely a religious issue, when in fact the sectarian divide with regards to the Old firm has as much to do with politics as religion.

 

IMO, it's very unfortunate the way this issue has been handled in recent times both in political and religious circles. There has also been a clear bias shown by the media in their dealing with the issue and in the case of Rangers, this has had the effect of decisions being made by footballing authorities which have appeared to single out Rangers FC and the Rangers support for punishment. IMO, further action needs to be taken to rectify this. It's not just a case of dealing with a few sectarian songs. We also need to look at what fuels sectarianism. The main problem is how far do we actually need to go and in the end what will it actually achieve. After all, sectarianism in Scotland is much deeper rooted than the OF and removing it from football (if that's even feasible) is just a case of papering over the cracks.

 

Like most people at this point in time, I'm really unsure of where we go from here. I do know however that we as Rangers fans have a responsibility to ensure that our club isn't punished any further over this issue. For that reason, I think it would be advisable to avoid anything which could be deemed as sectarian.

 

So getting back to the topic in question. Do I think that an Ulster Day is sectarian? - No. Do I think that an Ulster Day could possibly encourage the singing of songs which could be accused of being sectarian? - Yes.

[Bluedell 5,366]

i just wish we wouldn't pretend its about unionism,

Is anyone saying it's about unionism? I haven't read the FF article, but I only brought up the subject as a counter-proposal to the sectarian argument. I wouldn't want to claim that's what it's about.

 

However if that WAS what it's about, it seems that it's an impossible thing to do without people claiming there is an ulterior motive. It seems that people have to put a negative slant on all things unionist or Protestant and it's impossible to promote either positively in today's Scotland (but that's another topic).

 

this is a GIRUY to celtic and their fans -

You've lost me here. I fail to see why it should bother Celtic and their fans, most of whom will not be aware of it. If it was anything to do with Celtic then why wouldn't it have happened at the recent game.

 

its not sectarian, certainly,

Thank you. That's the point I've been trying to make.

[Bluedell 5,366]

So getting back to the topic in question. Do I think that an Ulster Day is sectarian? - No. Do I think that an Ulster Day could possibly encourage the singing of songs which could be accused of being sectarian? - Yes.

Are the songs sectarian, or only accused of being sectarian?

 

As can be seen by TBO banner at the recent old firm game, there are people out there who will go to any lengths to accuse us of anything, and we can't stop doing things just because of the possibility of accusations.

[bmck 117]

Is anyone saying it's about unionism? I haven't read the FF article, but I only brought up the subject as a counter-proposal to the sectarian argument. I wouldn't want to claim that's what it's about.

 

"i only" isn't going to deflect responsibility here. counter-proposals/proposals, they all hold the same weight. the person said that from his perspective it was just sectarian, you said it could just as easily be unionism, which isn't sectarian, and i've said it can't be unionism. that's where we're at. i agree that its not sectarianism, but i dont think your counter-proposal works as a counter-proposal.

 

However if that WAS what it's about, it seems that it's an impossible thing to do without people claiming there is an ulterior motive.

 

that's because there always is. there's a reason why anti-abortionists call themselves pro-life, and abortionists call themselves pro-choice. it doesn't matter about how often people claim ulterior motives, it only matters whether they are right - its just cutting off the discussion by positioning questions as a product of a constant pessimism hell bent on seeing the worst.

 

It seems that people have to put a negative slant on all things unionist or Protestant and it's impossible to promote either positively in today's Scotland (but that's another topic).

 

totally disagree - i think people just tend to realise that protestantism/unionism is nothing like what they see 'celebrated' at football games. ask a Reformed Christian, hardcore protestants, from the shetland isles if all the flag flying and orange walking influences or celebrates any of his theological beliefs - whether he thinks its anything to do with the authority of the Roman pontif or his view of molonism or the perpetual virginity, or whether scripture or tradition should be a binding authority for christians. protestantism is a particular sort of Christianity, not flags and songs.

 

positive protestantism is feeding the poor, defending the cause of the oppressed, not being bound by the dictates of roman pontifs etc.

 

unionism's the same. if these so-called protestants & unionists started acting more like protestants and unionists, people couldn't object. as such, counter proposals that suggestion they are really just celebrating unionism and protestantism cant stand (for me).

 

You've lost me here. I fail to see why it should bother Celtic and their fans, most of whom will not be aware of it. If it was anything to do with Celtic then why wouldn't it have happened at the recent game.

 

so you dont agree with frankie then - there's nothing mischevious in this at all? it's not meant to wind up anyone and is purely and solely because we love our norther irish players?

 

Thank you. That's the point I've been trying to make.

 

aye, the point im trying to make is that its as near sectarianism as it is unionism or protestantism or celebrating heritage (ie: not very) - the former is the lie told by celtic supporters and cuddly liberals, and the latter is the lie told by rangers supporters, mainly to themselves.

 

anyway, though - i think this is a good debate to have. the more this stuff is talked about the more a shared consensus can evolve and grow. i dont know if i'm right, but we'll hopefully get further for having talked it all thruogh.

[UCF2008 0]

Are the songs sectarian, or only accused of being sectarian?

 

Well that's the problem - We don't know. You can be sure though, that there will be accusations. Unfortunately, it's not as easy for us to 'self-police' as the media would have you think. Some things are easier to define as being sectarian than others. It's like other forms of political correctness. Is a golliwog a racist symbol? How about a blackboard?

[Bluedell 5,366]

"i only" isn't going to deflect responsibility here. counter-proposals/proposals, they all hold the same weight. the person said that from his perspective it was just sectarian, you said it could just as easily be unionism, which isn't sectarian, and i've said it can't be unionism. that's where we're at. i agree that its not sectarianism, but i dont think your counter-proposal works as a counter-proposal.

So you are saying that people can't hold a RHU flag for unionist reasons? Interesting viewpoint.

 

 

that's because there always is. there's a reason why anti-abortionists call themselves pro-life, and abortionists call themselves pro-choice. it doesn't matter about how often people claim ulterior motives, it only matters whether they are right - its just cutting off the discussion by positioning questions as a product of a constant pessimism hell bent on seeing the worst.

People can be pro or anti abortion, but surely they can promote their views without being accused of having an ulterior motive?

 

 

totally disagree - i think people just tend to realise that protestantism/unionism is nothing like what they see 'celebrated' at football games. ask a Reformed Christian, hardcore protestants, from the shetland isles if all the flag flying and orange walking influences or celebrates any of his theological beliefs - whether he thinks its anything to do with the authority of the Roman pontif or his view of molonism or the perpetual virginity, or whether scripture or tradition should be a binding authority for christians. protestantism is a particular sort of Christianity, not flags and songs.

My comment was made in a general sense and not restricted to Orange Lodges. It would cover most branches of Protestantism and I stand by them.

 

unionism's the same. if these so-called protestants & unionists started acting more like protestants and unionists, people couldn't object. as such, counter proposals that suggestion they are really just celebrating unionism and protestantism cant stand (for me).

But they do. That's the problem.

 

 

so you dont agree with frankie then - there's nothing mischevious in this at all? it's not meant to wind up anyone and is purely and solely because we love our norther irish players?

 

I don't think the main reason for it is "a GIRUY to celtic and their fans."

 

anyway, though - i think this is a good debate to have. the more this stuff is talked about the more a shared consensus can evolve and grow. i dont know if i'm right, but we'll hopefully get further for having talked it all thruogh.

Yup.

[bmck 117]

So you are saying that people can't hold a RHU flag for unionist reasons? Interesting viewpoint.

 

no, i'm saying they cant fly them at a football match for anything that can properly be called unionist reasons.

 

People can be pro or anti abortion, but surely they can promote their views without being accused of having an ulterior motive?

 

the point that i was making was that labelling their beliefs with the most positive words doesn't fully reflect their position - for instance, we'd likely say that those nutjob christians in america who hound people having abortions and throw stuff at them weren't really pro-life so much as they were anti-abortion.

 

likewise, i'm saying that rangers fans flying-flags aren't so much unionists as, as, well, i dunno. and i dont think anyone outside the west of scotland would know or care. it doesnt bother me, but i'm not going to be kidded on its about unionism or protestantism. its just football & football crowds doing what football crowds do.

 

My comment was made in a general sense and not restricted to Orange Lodges. It would cover most branches of Protestantism and I stand by them.

 

your comment doesn't reflect anything i know as protestantism - either in contemporary times or through history.

 

 

But they do. That's the problem.

 

who's going to object to the actually-protestant act of donating to the needy, or standing up for the oppressed, sharing property etc? absolutely no-one. there's no protestantism without love/goodness/fear of god, that sort of thing - as soon as you stray from these things into self-indulgence you can be doing lots of things, but not celebrating your religion/political stance. that's when people find enough leeway to go on their little rants, no matter how irrational they are. that's why we can (correctly) say that the plastic paddies are hypocrites.

 

celtic recently sponsored the Big Issue worldcup football team, and donated strips. it was clearly a marketing gimmick, especially with the accompanying "we at celtic have a history of helping the poor in glasgow" etc, but, no-matter their motives, the achieved some good, so any objections are sour and bitter. but no actual goodness is achieved, and claims of hypocrisy will ring loud because the stated intentions arent the same as the actual intentions, simply because its impossible to celebrate protestantism at a football match, as a personal faith is completely independent of football.

 

I don't think the main reason for it is "a GIRUY to celtic and their fans."

 

what do you think the main reason actually is then?

[Bluedell 5,366]

no, i'm saying they cant fly them at a football match for anything that can properly be called unionist reasons.

People can fly them at football matches for what they believe are unionist reasons. You may disagree that they are "proper" reasons, but that doesn't take away from their intentions.

 

 

likewise, i'm saying that rangers fans flying-flags aren't so much unionists as, as, well, i dunno. and i dont think anyone outside the west of scotland would know or care. it doesnt bother me, but i'm not going to be kidded on its about unionism or protestantism. its just football & football crowds doing what football crowds do.

If someone has a flag outside of football for whatever reason, it doesn't lose its meaning just because it's taken inside a football ground.

 

 

your comment doesn't reflect anything i know as protestantism - either in contemporary times or through history.

 

who's going to object to the actually-protestant act of donating to the needy, or standing up for the oppressed, sharing property etc?

If someone donates to the needy, you think of that act as promoting Protestantism? Since when have acts of kindness been religion-specific?

 

I think we are talking at cross-purposes. I'm not referring to individual acts. I'm talking about it in more of a "corporate" sense for lack of a better phrase. However I don't have time to further explain what I am talking about at the moment. Frigging currency movements are screwing up my day.

 

what do you think the main reason actually is then?

I couldn't say what the majority's reasons are but I doubt that if they were asked and they answered truthfully that many would mention Celtic.

[Cotter 0]

I guess there's no arguing if you can state why 99% of people are doing something. Have you never considered that it could be more of a unionist/political issue rather than a religious one?

 

Out of interest what is it you feel when you see the Red Hand flag?

 

I presume the Ulster-Scots banner is also Sectarian?

 

Gribz, Celtic fly the Irish tricolour and play Irish music at every game.

 

OK mate let me be a little more precise and answer some of your questions.

 

1. In my earlier post I was guilty of lumping politics and religion together when referring to the folk that fly Ulster flags at Ibrox. The reason I didn't separate the two is because 99%, sorry the vast majority of the people I SEE flying the flags do exactly the same in their minds and the waters will forever be muddy to them. Republicanism=Catholicism. Protestantism=Unionism. Its all the same to many and an excuse to jump on a tribal bandwagon. I am speaking from 20 years experience of going to Ibrox but maybe you have a different take on the people I've seen with Ulster flags. They tend to be about 17, Glaswegian, wearing the flag as a cape a la Superman, screaming "No Surrender" down the road with a bottle of Buckie in hand. So when I see the red hand at Ibrox I usually don't feel much as I'm so used to it, but when I consider it like I am now or when I see a huge one on TV in a European game I cringe. There you go. I cringe. Not because I think the image itself is secatrian but because I know that is how it is perceived by the watching masses, UEFA and people I have yet to meet that may at some point in my life question my motives for supporting Rangers after what they have seen. I'm sick of making excuses for the morons and having to qualify my status as a fan to those in blissful ignorance of the situation with the addition "but I'm not intae all that shite".

 

2. Of course I don't think the Ulster Scots banner is sectarian. I'm not an idiot. I am aware of the cultural links between us throughout history with folk music, religion etc etc before the troubles even started. My point remains that the Glaswegian neds that buy these flags outside Ibrox DO think they are sectarian and that's why they buy them.

 

My posts are about how the club is being percieved and the motivations of the banner carriers and flag wavers. I am not saying a country's national flag or one depicting friendship are sectarian. Gies a break!

[Cotter 0]

I'm sorry Cotter but how can you claim 99% of people fly the national flag of NI for religious reasons?

 

Surely, most are just proud of where they come from and enjoy bringing that flag to the game?

 

As for being concerned for our image, well we can be concerned all we like but no matter the intentions of most subjects, certain people (the media and Celtic fans for example) will be offended no matter what.

 

The facts are this is nothing to do with sectarianism and to suggest so is rather unfair. Of course you're entitled to your opinion but in this case, I think you are wrong.

 

Frankie if you think Rangers fans organising an "Ulster Day" has nothing to do with bigotry or sectarianism to the extent that you refer to the matter as "fact" then I give up....... Surely that's worse than my admittedly rash 99% comment?

 

As a wee footnote I'd like to add that when I was 7 I asked my dad what a F*****n B*****d was because a group of those proud flag carriers had been screaming it at Motherwell players all game. Things never change eh?