BrahimHemdani

Perhaps so but that's not really the point here, common courtesy, if not football norms should have meant that he was told before he read it in the papers.

I am not medically qualified, Pete, so cannot argue with your opinion; but I still doubt that many refrees would have viewed that push as violent conduct, within the meaning of the Las of the Game.

A lot of what you say is true, LB. Despite the guidance from FIFA, ultimately what constitutes violent conduct is a matter for the referee's judgement; but the guidance of "excessive force" and "brutality" is there to assist a referee in making that judgement. Let me put this another way. Let's say that Mohsni refuses to shake hands, Erwin pushes him in the back but with sufficient force to knock him down, Mohsni takes it in his stride and walks off the park. What action would or should the referee have taken then? Most likely nothing in my opinion, other than perhaps a suggestion in the player's ear that the game is over and get up the f**** up the tunnel as quickly as possible. Possibly a yellow card for unsporting behaviour, which is the SFA view. Had Mohsni not retaliated none of this would be under discussion. I agree that I am far from unbiased where Mr Bilel Mohsni is concerned but I have tried to give an opinion from a refereeing perspective of what the Laws of the Game have to say on this subject based on my experience as a referee and administrator in the game; but I have also said that ultimately "violent conduct" is a judgement call for each referee, whom absent the SFA. They made the call and I agree with their decision. On last thing, I was a Rangers fan when I was a referee. Most if not all referees are fans of one team or another. That does not make their decisions invalid even where they are for or against "their" team. As a referee or linesman you simply do not have time to think will I give this decison for or against "my" team. You only have a split second to make a decision, whether it be a foul, throw in or whatever. This is hard enough without factoring in bias. I know that's not really your point; but I thouught I'd add it nonetheless.

I think you are viewing this in terms of a fixed term contract in the commercial world. I would suggest that in football terms whilst he knew the date upon which his contract ended, nonetheless it is customary to tell a player whether or not it is likely to be extended or a new offer made. This is a particularly true in our case because there were three different management teams and a new one on the way, so four really and two different ownership groups; all of which would have prevented any offers being made during the season. So the circumstances, where no offer = no new contract, did not necessarily apply. I don't think Foster is the best defender in the world but he is more than useful going forward. He is credited with 6 assists in 29 games last season, two of which were in his first two games back after injury. IMHO he is by no means the worst of those "let go". Sinammon was not rated high enough to get even one start, when it was obvious that McGregor was need at CB; so it would appear that we do not have a first team RB on the books. If we are thinking about spending money on players then surely MF and strikers are the priority. I would have offered Foster a new one year contract at £2,000/£3,000 a week, which he would not be able to better in Scotland.

I have already said that "Of course you are correct that Mohsni was not OBLIGATED to shake hands." However, you are wrong about the rest and, since you ask, I will tell you why. Violent conduct is judged in the same way before (for example if a player were to punch or kick another player in the tunnel before the teams take the field), during, or after the match (as in this case, or indeed if it happened in the car park after the match); all of which falls under the jurisdiction of the referee. The fact that a push in the back after the final whistle, as you say in retaliation for a failure to act like a good sportsman and shake hands, may well be reprehensible, does not turn an act that is not violent like a push in the back, into violent conduct. It is "ungentlemanly conduct" in old money "unsporting behaviour" as it is now called and rightly punished by a caution and not classed as an ordering off offence. This what constitutes viloent conduct: A player is guilty of violent conduct if he uses excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball. Violent conduct may occur either on the field of play or outside its boundaries, whether the ball is in play or not. He is also guilty of violent conduct if he uses excessive force or brutality against a team-mate, spectator, match official or any other person http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/7.%20law%2012_miscounduct_557.pdf I doubt you will find many referees who would regard a push in the back (particularly where it was not sufficiently forceful to knock the player down) as use of excessive force. As I point out above, just because it took place after the final whistle and Mohsni was not expecting it, though you concede his action caused it, does not make it an act of excessive force i.e. violent conduct. If you look at the pictures and the notes in the guide to the rule you will see that: A player is guilty of serious foul play if he uses excessive force or brutality against an opponent when challenging for the ball when it is in play; and indeed violent conduct may occur either on the field of play or outside its boundaries, whether the ball is in play or not. “Using excessive force” means that the player has far exceeded the necessary use of force and is in danger injuring his opponent. The pictures show what is meant by excessive force e.g. over the ball tackles, or where: Any player who lunges at an opponent when challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force and endangering the safety of an opponent, is guilty of serious foul play; which is the same category of ordering off offence as violent conduct. So taking that into the context of this incident, did Erwin's actions put Mohsni in danger of injury, I think not. Was it an act of "brutality", again I think not. Was it cowardly, perhaps so; does that make it "violent" as defined, I think not. In any event there is no justification whatsoever for Mohsni's response, which without doubt was doubly violent and placed Erwin in danger of injury.

Mucho gracias, estimado senor.

I do indeed hold Mohsni in utter contempt but do not agree with your other comments or your reasoning. Of course you are correct that Mohsni was not OBLIGATED to shake hands; but Rangers players should be dignified in defeat IMHO and I know from earlier exchanges on this topic that not all agree with that either, so I'll leave it at that.

I completely agree that we should never have signed a player with that kind of disciplinary record; and hopefully will never do so again.

That's an interesting point, Craig. I think you'll find that if a player consistently amasses 4 red cards in 2/3 seasons with clubs in different jurisdictions, eventually his overall record will come to the attention of UEFA or FIFA who wil act accordingly. That said I don't know if there is any such system. If Rangers had taken disciplinary action and fined him say two weeks wages and he didn't pay then I think Rangers would have been able to report that to UEFA and stop him playing until he paid up. I am fairly sure they could have done that as he was under contract at the time of the incident; not sure if they could have suspended him as well. But the SFA have, so perhaps Rangers could have done so as well. Anyway, with a 7 match ban to serve that will be enforced anywhere in the world I would think, he might have some difficulty finding another club.

They were violent conduct but not deemed "excessive" in comparison with Mohsni's punch and kick.

A push in the back is NOT violent conduct and my opinion of Mohsni has nothing to do with it. Think about how many times players push others in the back in a football match; how many would be left at the end of they were all guilty of violent conduct? Yes the match was finished but Mohsni refused to shake hands, that's what started it. Erwin was wrong to push him, of course he was, but please look at the video again and tell me if you really and truly think that was violent conduct. Have you not seen one player push another out of the way to get the ball at a throw in, for example; how many such incidents are punished by a yellow never mind a red card?

SBS. We don't often agree but I usually find there is some substance to your arguments. "Moshni did nothing wrong"? You cannot be serious. You can argue the provocation or the degree of the violence Mohsni meted out in retaliation but, he did nothing wrong. Come on man, this is a wind up, surely?

I'm sorry I don't really understand your points but I'll try to clarify mine. He (Mohsni) was warned on multiple occasions by previous boss Paul Sturrock about his poor disciplinary record, having collected 17 bookings and four red cards in three seasons at Southend http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22124604 including one for kicking a Northampton player in the goolies after just 27 minutes. Seriously, take a look at it here: http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11788/9872013/a-look-at-the-rap-sheet-of-rangers-defender-bilel-moshni-after-motherwell-brawl AND be honest, how many times have you seen a player punch another in the face with a straight left or right? AND on how many of those occasions was the player retaliating after being pushed in the back? AND he was sent off 4 times in 2 seasons with us and I don't know how many bookings. So that's 8 red cards in 5 seasons, which is a far worse record than earned Willie Woodburn a sine die ban. That was my main point. I would have been derelict of my duty if I had been refereeing and not protected Mohsni from a push in the back? How exactly would I or any referee have done that? I have seen few if any referees who by their very presence could control a player's actions; Tom "Tiny" Wharton could do it sometimes but he couldn't stop Jimmy Johnstone kicking Totie Beck in the New Year derby in 1965. And I wasn't on the same planet as Tiny Wharton who was my supervisor for some years. Jack Mowat (who preceded Wharton both as my supervisor and as Chairman of the Supervisors and who refereed the 1960 European Cup Final: Real Madrid v Eintracht Frankfurt at Hampden Park) probably did because he was known as a fierce disciplinarian. Bob Valentine could do it because he was so fit that he was always right on top of the action. Brian McGinlay, perhaps sometimes, by his camaraderie with the players. Hugh Dallas couldn't do that, the best he could do was get a high percentage of the decisions correct and he was far and away the best of his generation. NO referee in the modern era compares to those five IMHO. None of them could have stopped Erwin pushing Mohsni in the back or Mohsni punching and kicking in retaliation. Indeed referees are advised to stand back, take note of who does what and then take appropriate action; not get physically involved themselves. Are you somehow suggesting that in the spirit of the law Erwin should have been subject to harsher punishment and/or Mohsni less so? If that's your stance could you explain that a bit further please.

Mohsni is the victim of bullying? Come in Calscot you can do better than that. And that's exactly the point. His place of work is a football pitch NOT the street; so he is subject to a different standard in terms of setting an example and the Laws of the Game; but he should be subject to the laws of the land as well and should have been charged with at least a breach of the peace.

All absolutely correct.

Absolutely correct.

It's not just one incident though, it's the fact that he did it time after time at Southend and with us, that does indeed mark him out as a nut case to use your expression, I would put it somewhat differently.

Why should they defend the indefensible actions of a person who has proven time and again that he can't control himself. He was our player at the time of the incident and Rangers could and should have taken disciplinary action against him IMO.

So no one up for The First Official Gersnet Trip to Malaga then?

I take it that was meant to be a reply to my post #21 or perhaps both FS #22 as well? Obviously I have to watch my pensioiner pennies a bit more than you Caribbean jetsetters. A bit off topic agreed as I said.

I don't understand the highlighted sentence unless you mean that there was no standard punishment for being sent off or indeed for repeat offenders in those days but my reference was indeed to Willie Woodburn. In 1947 he received a 14-day ban for a "violent exchange" with Motherwell's Dave Mathie, then in 1953 he punched the Clyde striker Billy McPhail, which earned a 21-day ban. Later that year, Woodburn was sent off for retaliation in a match with Stirling Albion. The clubs met again, the following season, in a League Cup tie at Ibrox on 28 August 1954. Playing with a knee injury, Woodburn took exception to a bad foul and retaliated by headbutting a Stirling player. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Woodburn So I had the time period correct, I believe. I am aware it was rescinded three years later but by then he was 37 so it was an easy decision for the SFA to make. I don't have time at the moment but I think that if you examine Mohnsi's record of indiscipline you will find that it is at least as bad if not worse than Woodburn. I dislike Mohsni because he has brought disgrace to the Club twice - in Derby and again at Motherwell, leaving aside his other indiscretions. The fact that he might be an otherwise nice person and kind to kids cuts no ice with me. He sets entirely the wrong kind of example on the pitch. We are very well rid of him and I've heard few fans disagree with that standpoint.

Suspect it was more a typo for "are we....." but thou may well be correct.

Fair enough. I would have gone to see Elvis but that's about the only reason. I've seen the real Eiffel Tower, and if I want to see the pyramids I'll go to Egypt or the Canals I'll go to Venice. I think it's summed up for me by the Pinball Hall of Fame and the Neon Museum; but each to his own. Maybe we should start a favourite vacation or city thread. That should help us pass the summer months.

The SFA have done everyone who might have to play against Mohsni a massive favour. In the 50's or 60's he'd have been suspended sine die for sure.

Surely we should be aiming higher than that?