JohnMc

As I see it there are two issues that need addressed; the quality of football and the interest in our club. The question is does an 'Atlantic League' address one, or both, of those issues. The quality of football in the league we're currently in is poor. Scottish sides are regularly knocked out of Europe in the early, early rounds, even Celtic qualifying for Champion's League has resulted in their heaviest ever defeat this season. In my lifetime Scottosh club sides were competitive on the highest level, today we're simply not. The quality of player we, as a country, produce is also sub-standard. A succession of international managers have been unable to make a silk purse out of the sow's ear that is the Scottish international side, the SPFL and it's predecessors are largely responsible for that. Part of the reason for this is a lack of vision, organisation and strategy, further hindered by self-interest and a lack of finance. The interest in our club is also a concern for me. True, we're still regularly playing in front of sell-out crowds, but have a look around you next time you're at Ibrox, take in the average age of the fan present, it's 40plus. The next generation of football supporter, the kid brought up in multi-channel, hi-definition, super sunday EPL/La Liga/Bundesliga Live get's t watch Real Madrid, Messi, Aguero any time they want. Why is that person going to pay good money to go to Ibrox to watch sub-standard football played by ordinary players? At my north Glasgow primary school every boy in my year, without exception, supported Rangers or Partick Thistle. My sons today go to a different Glasgow primary school but one with much in common with the one I attended. In their class there might be half a dozen boys who identify as Rangers supporters. The 10 year olds today support Chelsea, Man City, Barcelona as their first team. They can see these clubs anytime that like, every match is live. Their players are glamourous, famous and pretty good at football as well. Local sides don't get much of a look-in. I've lived in Ireland, I've seen first hand what happens to local football when an entire population supports club sides in another country. If you don't think that can happen here then you've not being paying attention. Can the Atlantic League help address these issues; maybe. But it has a better chance than the current set-up does. The big risk to the Champion's League isn't the Atlantic League, it's the English Premier League. It already attracts more money than the Champion's League. There's an inevitability that an NFL style football league will emerge in Europe. Broadcasters want it, advertisers want it and certain clubs want it. Rangers currently have no chance of being invited to that. If an Atlantic League helps our club grow it's profile again, attract better players, play better football against sides also playing better football then we need to seriously consider it. There was a time in our history when the Glasgow Cup was a big tournament, it carried prestige, attracted big crowds to derby matches and was looked forward to by the fans. Times change. I think there will be a 'land grab' in football soon. Clubs will break ranks with UEFA, they'll decide to go it alone and to hell with the consequences. Something like the Atlantic League might just be the spark. I'd prefer us to join the English League but that's not likely as things stand, so the Atlantic League needs considered. Something has to change or, frankly, in a generation's time we'll be Linfield.

Yes, as has been said above one of the great ironies of Celtic's nine-in-a-row period was that Rangers had one of their best ever sides during that period, contesting two European Finals and winning one of them. It's no exageration to say that Glasgow was as strong a footballing city as any in the world at the time. The other difference between that period and the early 80s was we were competitive then. Celtic had a great side and were managed by a genius, but we were very good too, just not quite good enough. We were arguably watching one of the finest Rangers side in history at the time. In the early 80s we weren't even second best. There's an article to be written about this period and the affect of the baby-boomer generation on Scottish/British football. The post-war babies were in their 20s in the late 60s and early 70s, the peak for footballers. The UK suffered significantly fewer casualities and infrastructural destruction than most of continental Europe during WW2, this must have played a part in the development of the sport. Last half of the 1960s first half of the 70s saw Celtic and Man U win the European Cup, England win the World cup and reach the quarter finals in 1970, as well as Rangers, Wolves, Spurs, Liverpool, West Ham, Chelsea and Manchester City all reach European Finals. Even Linfield and Glentoran reached European quarter finals in this period.

For me, there were two matches that were signifiers of the era. The first was the 1982 Scottish Cup Final against Aberdeen. We'd already won the League Cup that season but it was another fase dawn and our league form wasn't good as we finished a distant 3rd, ten points behind 2nd placed Aberdeen. Aberdeen hammered us in the final, it was 4-1 after extra time but that suggests the first 90 minutes were close and they weren't. But it wasn't just the result it was the sides too. Aberdeen had exciting young players like Leighton, Miller, McLeish, Strachan, Cooper, Simpson and Hewitt with Eric Black on the bench. Rangers bench had Tommy McLean on it, he was 35 at the time. The starting 11 included stalwarts of the great 70s Rangers sides Sandy Jardine and Alex Miller, both were fit and talented but well into their 30s and passed their best, our young players were John McDonald and Gordon Dalziel and it was clear even then that neither was international class, unlike Aberdeen's young players. That match signified the passing of a baton from Rangers to Aberdeen. Aberdeen had finished only 2 points behind champions Celtic in the league and were clearly building an exciting young team. We did have some good players in our side, Bobby Russell, Davie Cooper, Jim Bett and John McLelland all started the match and were international class players but the players around them simply weren't. That Aberdeen side went on to beat Real Madrid to win the Cup Winners Cup they qualified for beating Rangers. They also won the league twice whilst Rangers struggled to finish fourth. Fast forward to August 31st 1986. A new Rangers side were playing Celtic at Ibrox in the first Old Firm match of the season. Souness had become manager a few months before and had signed Terry Butcher, Chris Woods and Colin West from the English league. Butcher in particular was one of the finest defenders in the world at the time and Souness (sorry, as an Everton fan this might hurt) was one of Europe's best midfielders and had been Scotland captain going into the summer's World Cup (in the days when Scotland qualified for tournaments). But the season hadn't started too promisingly. Opening day defeat to Hibs was followed by a close win at home to Falkirk then defeat at home to Dundee Utd. We beat Hamilton away before welcoming champions Celtic to Ibrox having won only two of our first four matches of the season. Celtic had a good side, they'd won the league on the final day of the season a few months before, in a time when the league was genuinely competitive and three or four sides went into it with realsitic expectations of success. They were unbeaten going into the match, winning every game except one, a draw with Aberdeen. They were the form side and the champions. Rangers won the match 1-0. A suberb finish from Ian Durrant set up by a sublime run and assist from a revitalised Davie Cooper. It wasn't just the result though, it was the manner of the performance. We went toe-to-toe with the champions and we outplayed them. Our side now had four genuinely international class players in Souness, Cooper, Woods and Butcher alongside exciting young players like Ally McCoist, Ian Durrant and Derek Ferguson. We'd had a few false dawns over the previous 6 years, but this felt different, and that's not just with hindsight. It was clear even then that Durrant was a class above above any other young player we'd produced in a couple of decades. McCoist, a player who didn't look like he'd make it at Ibrox before that season was suddenly scoring for fun and, probably most importantly, Davie Cooper a veteran of the side, a player gifted with incredible close control and power, responded to the improvement in squad and attitude to produce his defining season. He was immense, unplayable at times, drawing defenders out of position to create space for others to exploit, creating chances and looking like he was actually enjoying football again. That was the day I believed we could win the league again. We laid down a marker that day. By the end of the seaon Alex Ferguson had left Aberdeen and Davie Hay was sacked as Celtic manager. We won the league that season and the League Cup and most tellingly changed Scottish football for seasons to come. Now we can debate whether ultimatley that change was for the better now, but at the time it certainly was.

Really Pete, "our" heritage? Speak for yourself, it's not mine. EDIT Ah, see later in the thread you were being sarcastic, apologies.

Undoubtedly the reaction by some would have been quite different had Rangers supporters attacked Hibs players, I've little doubt about that. It doesn't change the point though, how can Rangers prevent that and should they be held responsble for it? The Hibs chairman's response was disgraceful. Celtic's response to the effigies and the banners and Aberdeen's to the bus scratching was too, director's of clubs are terrified to upset their vocal lunatic fringe for some reason. Siding with what's right is seen as more hassle than it's worth and that's a shame, it gives entirely the wrong impression. Doesn't change my view that the SFA and the police are responsible here, along with the idiots who perpetrated the acts.

I don't think Hibs are responsible for the behaviour of their fans. As such I don't think they can be punished. Do we think that The Stone Roses or Calvin Harris should be fined because of the violence that took place at T In The Park this summer? The people responsible for policing T In The Park are the organisers and the police, not the bands performing. Likewise neither Rangers or Hibs can seriously be held responsible for the behaviour of supporters surely? Short of running onto the park and pushing fans off it the director's of Hibs have no control over what fully grown adults will do in any particular situation. Neither do the Rangers directors, or officials or employees. This whole thing has been a smokescreen. Those who should be held responsible for what happened are the individuals who took part in invading the park, vandalism and assaults, the SFA as the organisers of the match and the police. Crimes took place, assaults took place. It's the job of the police to firstly prevent this, something they clearly failed at, then secondly to bring the perpetrators to justice. Fining Hibs or Rangers for something neither club has any control over is simply passing the buck. The fact that it was the SFA who were holding this enquiry simply underlines the absurdity of it. Rangers in particlular should be taking legal action against them for failing to provide protection and a safe working environment. The cries of 'strict liability' are once again buck passing. This simply means the police and the organisers, both who make money from simply doing their jobs at these events, don't want to take responsibility for what happens at them. I think that's absurd. Rangers supporters are rightly angry that our players were assaulted and some of our fans put in danger. The responsibility for this lies with the SFA and with the police, both of who are looking for someone else to blame. We shouldn't help them do this.

double post.

Great stuff, well done. Love the tangerine tin story, the little individual acts of defiance always make me smile. As for Saturday, ach well, whatever the score I'll still be a bluenose afterwards so there's always that.

Right, so because RC schools exist a few hundred drunken neds belted out 'No Pope Of Rome' at a football match in Kilmarnock on Friday? I'm sorry but that's nonsense, total nonsense. The people who sung the songs in question on Friday are arrogant, bigoted, morons who are so out of touch with reality it beggars belief and who don't care what damage they do to the club and its support. Why does anyone make excuses for these pricks? Why don't we have four pages of utter condemnation for these arseholes who once again feel the best way to support Rangers is to sing about near hundred year old razor gangs led by fascists and fantasy songs about the Pope? It's not the BBC's fault these dicks sung that song. It's not the fault of the Roman Catholic church, or the SNP or the police the fault lies firmly at the feet of the cretins who sung it. Nowhere else. If you don't like the fact the song is banned, if you feel you should be able to sing 'no chapels to sadden my eyes' in public whenever you want then take it up with your MSP and your MP, lobby parliament, crowdfund a campaign, occupy George Sq, stand for election on this argument, pay for advertising explaining your views. But please, please stop fuckin singing it at Rangers games. It's 2016.

Dundalk are in the Europa League this season so they've probably got a bit more cash than normal, plus his Dad is managing Derry City so he'll know the standard involved. Can't be many players have left Rangers and joined an League Of Ireland side. He was a frustrating player Shiels, you could see flashes but never consistently. He was very highly rated as a teenager, another one who looked like a potential star at 15.

By my reckoning only three of our likely starting line-up will have played at Parkhead for us before, that's a big disadvantage. A hostile, full Parkhead gives them an advantage and I worry some of our players might freeze. I expect Celtic will come at us from the first whistle, close us down and put us on the back foot, if we can weather that and keep moving the ball we'll silence their support. But if a few of our players freeze and Celtic get an early goal I expect a long, difficult afternoon. They're a momentum team, geared up to attack and if we let them it might be horrible. I also don't think they're that much better than us, but home advantage really helps them and our form has been patchy, but the match is still a few weeks away and a lot can happen between now and then. Rodgers sides were never good defensively and his player recruitment was patchy at best, but he can motivate players and he can get the best out of attacking players, so we'll need to be careful.

That's great news, well done. From being banned by the West End Festival to international travel awards, quite the journey. I did the tour with my Dad a few years ago and would wholeheartedly concur with the sentiments above, something every bluenose should do and indeed of interest to any real football supporter.

Yeah probably a couple at most, certainly nothing like last nights Hezbollah-a-thon. You're right it's no more prevalent than the American or Canadian flag or indeed the Bosnian flag. I've never seen a Palestinian flag, we've never had a Palestinian player though.

Well I've certainly seen the Israeli flag in the Rangers support at matches, I once took a photo of the Star of David flag in the Copland and sent it to a Celtic supporting Scottish Jewish Zionist I know, indeed I was thinking about him last night, he must have been squirming as the Hamas-fest took place. I think it's ridiculous that there's even any suggestion the Celtic support should be censured for this though. It was impolite, childish and reeks of the needy 'look at us' culture that permeates a section of their support, but that's it. I noticed a few years ago that as Irish Republicans started flying Palestinian flags from lampposts in West Belfast that Israeli ones appeared in Loyalist areas so it was only a matter of time before it showed up in Glasgow football too. I've a lot of sympathy with the Palestinian people, they've been treated pretty badly by a variety of countries and peoples but using it as some point scoring, right-on, aren't we all hipster intellectuals bullshit should be mocked. The holier than thou strain in the Celtic support is cringeworthy. The complex issues of the Middle East are unlikely to be influenced by barely reformed football casuals from Coatbridge. Tossers.

So just me then that thinks we over-react to this? I can see from his biog that he's the programme editor and so has some sort of official role, but really, c'mon, he's taking the piss. The very fact that's the game he's looking forward to is surely all the confirmation we need that he's attempting to be humorous. We need to grow a thicker a skin about this, we're going to get this and the zombie stuff for a few years more, laugh it off, poke fun back, deal with it in a mature way. dB, if he's a Thistle fan then rest assured he meets bears in real life, he's probably got several in his family, he's highly unlikely to live in some Thistle supporting only ghetto. He's kidding us on, playing on a sore point with our support, making his own fans laugh. Jeez, we react like he's personally stripping titles. How does writing that make someone a bigot Tb? Come our next visit to Firhill expect a lot of 'you're not Rangers anymore' because clearly it irks us and opposition fans can see that, best solution is to put five past them and they'll soon realise we're exactly the same Rangers they know and love.

Realistically Celtic are still favourites. In Griffiths they've a striker who can score against anyone in Scotland, if they can keep him fit they'll challenge all season. However, they're very dependent on him, he scored more than a third of all their league goals last season, and if he picks up an injury or loses form they've got a big problem, of course they might sign someone else before the season starts. We're different, our top scorer only contributed 18% of our goals, that's unlikely to change this season. Unlike Celtic our goals come from all over the park so losing Waghorn for example whilst a blow isn't as difficult for us. Again we might also have signed another forward before the season starts. Half the SPFL are of the same quality as we faced last year, they're no better than Falkirk, Hibs or Raith Rovers and we should be able to deal with them home and away. The other half will pose us different challenges. Hearts are a big strong physical side, they'll be an interesting side to face, they're direct and robust and will be unlike any side we've played under Warburton so far. We're a small, light team, some of the new guys will add some height and strength but we're still built for speed and movement and sometimes in Scottish football you need to win the physical battle first. Aberdeen are also a big side but I feel are more of passing team. They'll compete with us toe-to-toe at first, at least at home, but they're good on the break and have experience in their team, I'd expect to drop points to them over the season. There'll be a couple of other SPFL sides who'll put a run together, there always is. As St Johnstone showed us early last season a well organised, disciplined defence combined with the ability to counter-attack can cause us problems and we can expect to face that from a few sides. If we don't get an early goal sides will be happy to sit deep and wait for their chance. As for Celtic, well who really knows. I can't decide if Rogders is a good manager or a balloon. He's done well at some clubs and not at others, he tries to play passing football and keep possession and Celtic to have some good players. They have a huge squad though, too big, and a little unbalanced in my opinion. But they have height and strength and that will cause us problems. So, yeah, we can win the league but it will be difficult and we'll need some luck along the way.

I don't think Kranjcar should start the season, he doesn't look fit enough to me, he should be on the bench. In the games he's played you couldn't have asked for more from Windass, he'd start ahead of Kranjcar. I'd also start with O'Halleran before Forrester although I don't think there's much between them. McKay, Waghorn, Wallace, Tavernier, Fotheringham, Halliday, Wilson and Kiernan should start the season, that's the core of the side that got promotion and should get first crack at the league this season. I'd include Holt in that list if he was fit. I'd add Windass, O'halleron and probably Barton (through gritted teeth) to them for the starting 11. Injuries and suspensions apart my concern this season is keeping McKay, if he starts this season like he finished last season I think our directors will be tested in the January transfer window.

Well one of the people elected used to have a season ticket for Ibrox a few years ago now.

Durrant didn't decide his salary, someone else is to blame for that. If he was offered a new contract on a lower salary and refused it that's one thing, if he was simply not offered a new contract that's quite different. Is it Warburton that makes decisions on youth coaches then? Is that his remit too? As has been said above who knows what goes on behind the scenes, I just hope he was treated with some respect.

I'm really disappointed to read this, I was under the impression Durrant had been doing a good job and was a popular and respected coach, particularly of younger players. My total love of Durrant the player means I've a blind spot where it comes to him. Durrant was the first genuinely international class player we produced in over a decade, an elegant yet highly effective player capable of winning matches on his own. I recently watched the Skol Cup Final against Celtic from the mid 80s and Durrant was just sensational, we forget just how good a player he was before his injury. I'm sorry no other role could have been found for him at the club, as someone who has been with us literally since childhood it feels like he could have been treated a little better.

Is this the thread to remind us all to take a summer holiday? I've never seen such a mish-mash, car crash of a thread on Gersnet, did someone really accuse Martin Luther King of brainwashing? Aye, he brainwashed all those American blacks into thinking they had rights, the monster. Roll on July so we can all debate Orange Walks again...

I don't believe the SNP are inherently anti-Rangers, no more than any other Scottish political party are. Rangers are not fashionable in political circles, as such there's little to be gained from politicians of any stripe publicly supporting them. That is an issue but i'm not sure that's the fault of the politicians. When you say the SNP didn't support us in the current situation, what did you expect to happen? I mean Hibs fans have been arrested and charged it's not like nothing has happened. I personally would be against government getting involved and putting pressure on independent bodies.

But two wrongs make a right Frankie, surely? I'm as annoyed about Rangers players being assaulted as the next person but I'm fairly sure I don't want the government to intervene. Fas involved should be charged, the SFA should hammer Hibs and the police should be forced to review future policing. But do we want politicians involved? To what purpose, what do you want them to achieve?

I've not made much of a contribution to the cup final aftermath for reasons of time and not being able to add much to the debate. However the way the 'debate' is now going is puzzling me a little. Why do we want politicians to become involved? There seems to be some sort of clamour for that and it baffles me. Hibs, the SFA and the police should be dragged over the coals and heavily criticised. A small amount of our support unfortunately should be too, whatever provocation they shouldn't have gone the pitch. But is this really something that needs to be taken to a governmental level? The assault on the players was inexcusable and I suspect Hibs will pay for that in one way or another, whatever their failings I can't see how the SFA can ignore it, I don't believe Rangers will let them either. But should this really go any further than those organisations? I'm not a Scottish nationalist and I don't want independence, let me say that at the outset. But I have voted SNP at local, Scottish and Westminster elections in the past and may do again. I look at who is standing and choose the person I think best for the job, sometimes that's been the SNP candidate. So yes, some Rangers supporters vote SNP, some support independence. I guess many don't associate the football team they want to win with other parts of their identity or belief system. Some people seem to find this concept difficult, I don't know why. I've lived in Northern Ireland, I spent three years there and have a big affection for the place and the people but let me assure you there is nothing about their politics or political parties we should be contemplating bringing here, nothing. We could spend all summer analysing why Rangers supporters and the club are viewed differently and treated differently from other clubs. But if anyone wants to say it's because we've an SNP government they are wildly wrong in my opinion. We, the supporters, have allowed our club to become unfashionable in some circles and viewed with genuine horror in others. How did that happen? What did 'we' do to contribute to that? We can ask 'how many SNP politicians are bluenoses' or whether a 'Unionist Party will emerge' but it kind of misses the point. We touched upon this a few months ago when the prospective SNP candidate for Glasgow Pollock held a meeting in a Celtic theme pub. Why would a young, intelligent, aspiring politician of Pakistani origin who received an expensive education choose to support Celtic? We can keep focussing on who messed up on Saturday or we can lose that focus and start to kick out in all directions. That might be why we keep being marginalised you know.

No he doesn't, and as someone pointed out he was punished and so should be allowed to get on with his life. However, and I accept I seem to be the only person who feels this way, I just don't think he should be a Rangers player. I'm not some Victorian moraliser, far from it, I just think there should be certain standards expected of Rangers players. Anyway, he's signed now so it doesn't really matter much what I think anyway and if he scores the winner against Celtic I'll be cheering him as loud as anyone.