calscot

When is it time to appeal to a higher body to do something sensible? The point about having higher bodies is that sometimes those involved in an association can lose objectivity and end up serving their own agenda. A higher body should be the ones who are not personally involved and so can resolve things objectively. This is the usual thing to protect against squabbling and bias.

You may not want to see people losing their jobs but as is always the case, it is often necessary in order for an industry to survive. It is happening all the time in the world and especially right now in the British civil service and armed forces. Would you rather they all kept their jobs but your tax rate went up by 10%? Sometimes it's necessary and not something to be shied away from due to feeling sorry for the unfortunate. You can feel sorry for them, but you have to remember that the ONLY fans in the country who originally didn't want this scenario were Rangers fans. The job losses are the will of the REST of Scottish football fans. I personally am now of the opinion that Scottish football needs a catharsis. It needs to see and feel the cold face of reality so that it can rebuild itself without the petty, self serving attitude and instead one that nurtures the game and makes decisions bases on the good of Scottish football as a whole. That's the only way we can survive well into the future. We need to go back to survival of the fittest in order to evolve and survive - and collaboration is one of inherent skills that is needed to be fit for survival in this scenario. Just like dogs need evolved to collaborate in hunting to survive. Single dogs struggled to survive alone.

These things always matter as again this is all about Celtic and they are trying to steal Rangers' trophies. They are doing this by claiming some heinous crime committed by Rangers so it is incredibly important to highlight to the world that they are guilty of that same said crime.

Actually, I think you're not seeing this right. The crime is not the EBT and non-payment of tax, it's the implication of dual contracts. The question is whether EBTs are de facto contracts. Howver, if Celtic paid the tax that actually means it wasn't a genuine EBT and was DEFINITELY a dual contract.

The weird thing is that Regan want's us in Div 1 and back to the SPL asap and is trying to hinder that goal at every turn...

I fail to see any mention of punishment to Celtic for their EBT... How can they be given one of Rangers' titles due to Rangers having EBT's when Celtic also had one the same season? Where is Celtic's signing embargo?

After reading more I've realised the embargo will not be illegal and we cannot take it to court. If applied the embargo will not be for the original punishment, it will instead be a condition of membership for which their rules say they can make up what they like. They are entitled to make up any sanction at all - and as they are entitled to do what they like then there are many on here who, to be consistent would have to argue that we have no right to complain even if they do something ridiculous to us - as they are "entitled". However, as ever I look at the moral side of it and find it incredulous that they would attempt to legally enforce an illegal punishment on us in this way. Just where is the integrity in that? Is this not bringing the game into disrepute? How is it any different from the EBTs? To me, it just shows the SFA is corrupt and instead of dispensing fair and natural justice, just wants to show it can do what it likes without recourse. Regan is showing that he is incapable of admitting he is wrong and will go to great and nefarious lengths to make sure what he personally wants is done. He wants to massage his ego with no regard to ethics and morality. "Natural justice", now there is a phrase which has no conception in Scotland at the moment.

Craig, there's not much we can change, BUT we CAN change the made up perception that what is happening to us is any form of justice. If we accept miscarriages of justice in the name of an integrity that just doesn't exist then we are doomed to be gleefully punished ad infinitum and made-up propaganda will become thought of as fact. We should point out the hypocrisy and double standards at every opportunity. You're seriously going to treat football as the same as all other employee situations? Sorry but this is not normal employment. Otherwise, how can an employer demand millions of pounds in compensation for an employee to change jobs? How can they charge compensation for young employees that don't even have a current contract with them? How can an association prevent a company from hiring employees? How can they force a company to only employ people of a certain age which is surely against employment age discrimination laws? How can a company owe another company money for a person's contract when that person has never had a contract with the first company or even worked for them? How can an association stop a person from using TUPE to work for another company? As you can see (and without doubt already know), Football is a special case and why does that special case apply to Rangers when it is detrimental despite being illogical - and then not apply when it would not only benefit the club but actually balance the whole industry? I'm sorry, but I think I made a pretty reasonable point, and you are just deliberately missing it and sounding to me like some financial guy who's never heard of football and its idiosyncrasies. In short, there is a transfer system with compensation in football that would probably be illegal elsewhere - if we're going to have it why shouldn't that also apply to TUPE? If financial laws apply to football then why should Rangers be force to paying the debts of the oldco? There is obviously a double standard - why don't we somehow find a way to make it more consistent?

HMRC could easily have dealt with Rangers before the sale to Whyte. They could have asked for the 23m they thought they were originally owed paid over 12 years. Then it would probably have been paid along with the 13m of paye and vat. The tax payer would have been 36m better off and Rangers would be better off too. There is the question of the penalties and interest but bearing in mind the mitigation that the payments were never hidden as the whole thing was set up by HMRC themselves as a LEGAL tax loophope, the penalties could and should be waived. As for the interest, it would seem reasonable (and I think this applies in the REAL world) that it is not due or calculated until the first demand is made. It's a loan shark strategy to not ask for their money before letting extortionate interest pile up a bit. But in the end the RIGHT thing to do as well as the most LOGICAL would be to have collected the 23m in reasonable time along with the usual tax payments which would then have been paid. The reason it wasn't is that HMRC had another agenda.

Don't know if we can do better for div 3. We need 27 year olds with only 2 caps for Scotland and not much chance of another. They are the kind of players who have no illusions about playing in the Premiership, Champions League or World Cup and as we know players value money more than anything. I can see how a player like that would take a better wage than he had at Hearts to have an easy ride in the 3rd, 2nd and 1st divisions. £300k+ a year to stroll around the league for your team while winning most games must be the easiest money around. When players say they want to "test themselves" what they mean is they want more money as they often end up at the likes of Cardiff. Money talks and football ambition is a luxury for most. We won't keep full internationalists but SPL journeymen should be easy to sign and it's what we need to get back to the SPL - although we may need a few better players to make sure of the final promotion. The guy is 27 and will have three years of being a first choice player on a top non-OF SPL wage and then probably still be competing for a place in the SPL. I'm sure we can find a fair few like him.

So should Everton, Norwich et al offer to pay (something) to put them in a good light? Why are we bad if we don't pay while other clubs are fine? Now you may say that they are entitled not to pay but then so are we... The point is the morality of it and showing integrity - so if we should be moral and show integrity then shouldn't other clubs who pick up our players also do so? Other clubs don't pay due to us being a newco and reciprocally we are not obliged to pay oldco debts. There is a huge double standard here. Either we should pay out of good will as it's the right football thing to do - and so should the other clubs, or we should all do as we are entitled to and look after our own finances. Which is it?

Bet that won't last more than two years...

Fan power sounds ideal - until you see the results it brings. We've just seen how fan power can result in vast sums of money leaving the game and clubs potentially going out of business. Can we really trust fans to run the game?

I still don't get how we're supposed to pay footballing debts while other clubs pick up our players for free. Where is the justice in that? I realise about employment law but that is still a facile argument as football compensation breaks employment law so why are we liable? Footballers are a special case and while I agree they should not be forced to move to the newco, it seems to me that their registrations should at least lapse to the SFA and UEFA and when they move there should be a tribunal that sets a reasonable fee for the transfer. That money can then be used to pay off footballing debts. We seem to be continual victims of a lack of sporting and financial integrity. There is also the weird bit where there is an outcry about our debts so what do they do to us to help us pay them - relegate us three divisions, fine us, remove our TV and sponsorship deals and handicap us in terms of competing... Just where is the logic?

Don't see why a tv deal with the SFL div 3 should have anything to do with the SPL.

Got asked for username and password...

Isn't that contempt of court? And they say we lack contrition...

Shouldn't the football debts be paid by those who have picked up our players for free? Surely the Oldco are still due compensations for them as they should legally hold their registrations? Untill it is liquidated that is.

My point it that if you promote to Dundee you open that that very can of worms - same if you strip Rangers of titles. You create an artificial, retrospective situation which is not 100% fair. As for Dundee deserving promotion - maybe, although it's debatable; however, as Gunslinger pointed out, the precedent is to not relegate - compare with Aberdeen etc. Dunfermline have a case. As for the rest of the leagues, the play-offs make it a bit easier - just promote the runners up - they all knew what they were playing for.

You really have to wonder what Celtic fans have to look forward to. It's all very well being handed an almost guaranteed title before the league even begins - and displaying your schadenfreude for your rivals with big attendances for the first season - but then what? We thrived for a while when Celtic became an non-entity during NIAR but the circumstances were totally different. We were one of the best teams in Europe, buying up top class players, and actually believed we had a realistic chance of winning the CL. Not only that, we still had a somewhat relatively competitive and somewhat glamorous league to play in. It wasn't so long after Fergie had left Aberdeen and they hadn't sunk as low as they have now and Hearts had a bit of money to spend. Both those clubs were spending the likes of £1m on a single player - which would be a lot more in today's money and of the same ball park as middling English Premier clubs, and yet that amount while devalued, is now unheard of. Even Dundee could find the money to unearth unlikely international gems such as Claudio Caniggia and Dariusz Adamczuk. The league Celtic will be playing in will be more of the standard of the First Division of the 90's. Their realistic aspirations in Europe will be qualification for the Europa league before going out without winning an away game. Instead of lots of new money coming into the league, old money will be leaving in droves. By the time we get back to the SPL, I imagine they will have jaded immensely. Crowds will be down, income vastly reduced and trying to attract decent players will be difficult and they may end up paying way over the odds just to bring in mediocre has-beens who lack ambition. The most exciting thing that will happen to them will be the return of the famous Rangers - but I suspect their bitterness will greet that with derision instead of giving them a fillip. As the ones who will have been rebuilding from the bottom up both in league terms and in the structure of our club, fresh faced in the latest challenge and motivated to win, I think we could have a massive advantage. Our glory hunters will also come out of the woodwork - and love them or hate them, they will add to our coffers. We will be sailing on the wind of a romantic comeback, a great catharsis and renewal. We'll be the fancied underdogs that will have many wanting us to smash the tedious, monotonous, monopoly of the league. We actually collapsed from a more favourable position from being a rich, European contender while our rivals were facing bankruptcy, to being the ones who went bankrupt themselves while Celtic prospered. It seems a natural occurrence that often happens in society and there is a good chance it will happen again. There is nothing better than the story of the fall and subsequent rise...

Could be a good time for a share issue. Lots of season ticket regulars with 200 quid burning a hole in their pocket... People cancelling Sky will be loaded.

I'm hoping we can negotiate a TV deal with Stv so I can watch it on FreeSat. Even better if they can do it in HD.

No excuse for not renewing then, but even if we fill Ibrox, the budget will be well down on previous. With our income halved, the money for wages will be a lot less than half due to fixed costs staying the same. Still, we should have the biggest budget in the league by a long way.

I wish people would learn when it is the right time to use that saying... it just doesn't make sense in the slightest here. We're already part way down the road if Dundee are promoted. So tell me where DO we stop?

So you wouldn't try out some youths for the last few games if what you were playing for was well out of your reach? Goes against what most people seem to advocate on here. I suspect SPL teams try harder for a UEFA place than they do to finish seventh instead of eighth.