Our Improving Finances - Muir of the Same?

[rbr 1,247]

Spot on NI , after the world cup I posted that the spanish press reported their coaching system , they have over 600 class A coaches all coaching the youngest kids , their class C coaches do the players , in Britain we are arse for tit , the English have only 60 odd class A coaches and they all coach first team players , I cant search for the exact post as I am off for waffles , have a nice day everyone

[calscot 0]

Hindsight is always 20-20 but this is the thing that is most depressing for me. If we had taken ONLY the fee for Flo (not bashing him) and invested it in world class scouts, 3 or 4 kids from around Europe and the coaches to train them we would have that conveyor belt of talent. If we had taken the Prodan cash and bought as much land around G51 as we could, financially we would be set. 2 players and our entire future would have been set, and not even 2 players that made the blindest bit of difference to our on field fortunes (Ok, so flo had a decent scoring record, we could have got a decent scoring record type striker for a million or so, Prodan didnt kick a ball in anger for us).

 

I think your missing my point. We could not guess how each player would turn out so that kind of prediction is an impossible task. However, when your spending far more than you earn for more abundance than you need, then it is extremely easy to foresee a future financial disaster. You need no hindsight in the slightest for this, just average forward thinking.

 

In the same vein there is no such thing as a guaranteed conveyor belt of talent. No club in the world has one, no matter how much they spend on scouts and coaches. The most proven way of winning any trophies is buying in talent - even when you're Alex Ferguson.

[Guest Northampton_loyalist]

I think your missing my point. We could not guess how each player would turn out so that kind of prediction is an impossible task. However, when your spending far more than you earn for more abundance than you need, then it is extremely easy to foresee a future financial disaster. You need no hindsight in the slightest for this, just average forward thinking.

 

In the same vein there is no such thing as a guaranteed conveyor belt of talent. No club in the world has one, no matter how much they spend on scouts and coaches. The most proven way of winning any trophies is buying in talent - even when you're Alex Ferguson.

 

A conveyor belt is absolutely possible. Ajax are a perfect example. They produce players of all levels and those who are superstars will play for a season or 2 and move for big money, some will play entire careers at the club and the vast, vast majority will fill up the teams in the rest of their leagues, commanding modest fees when they move.

 

A conveyor belt of talent does not mean a rake of Sneiders, it means a constant supply of footballers who command fees of varying levels, from mega money to smaller fees. We HAVE a conveyor belt, it is simply that the players who we dont use ourselves are not often good enough to raise fees and THAT is what we could have changed a decade ago, making the most of the talent available so that even the players we do not use are 'worth' something to someone and producing the occasional star.

 

I was broadly agreeing with what you said, the model applied was simply unsustainable and was fated to lead to financial ruin. There was clearly money available in our recent past and I was highlighting a couple of areas where, if it had been spent differently, we would have reaped rewards. Bear in mind that we were in very little/no debt at the end of 9iar despite paying more for players than ever before and relatively modest investment back then would have set us on a much better path. Likewise, if Murray was determined to spend vast sums during Advocaats tenure, a diversion of a tiny fraction could have made a world of difference to todays scenario. Clearly we would have been better off run in a sustainable manner, but it should not be forgotten that you need to speculate to accumulate and speculating on grass-roots infrastructure rather than journeymen would have represented an acceptable level of risk.

[Totti 0]

You'd be as well arguing with a brick wall. Calscot argues against all logic.

[calscot 0]

A conveyor belt is absolutely possible. Ajax are a perfect example. They produce players of all levels and those who are superstars will play for a season or 2 and move for big money, some will play entire careers at the club and the vast, vast majority will fill up the teams in the rest of their leagues, commanding modest fees when they move.

 

I think Ajax are backed up by the whole Dutch system and culture. They also have been far less successful of late and certainly cannot compete with the big five either. They were also constantly challenged by a team bankrolled by Philips who didn't have the same system.

 

I agree Ajax have done well with this, but if it's an easy model to follow for everyone then why is everyone not following it? That's the trouble with any obvious solution. How can it make us the best if everyone else can do it - unless you can patent it?

 

I was broadly agreeing with what you said, the model applied was simply unsustainable and was fated to lead to financial ruin. There was clearly money available in our recent past and I was highlighting a couple of areas where, if it had been spent differently, we would have reaped rewards. Bear in mind that we were in very little/no debt at the end of 9iar despite paying more for players than ever before and relatively modest investment back then would have set us on a much better path. Likewise, if Murray was determined to spend vast sums during Advocaats tenure, a diversion of a tiny fraction could have made a world of difference to todays scenario. Clearly we would have been better off run in a sustainable manner, but it should not be forgotten that you need to speculate to accumulate and speculating on grass-roots infrastructure rather than journeymen would have represented an acceptable level of risk.

 

I broadly agree with you but think we were making separate points. I was making the point that we should have not overspent by having a smaller, higher quality squad, while it seemed you were saying we should have allocated the overspend differently.

 

In any case, as far as I remember, our overspending was partly due to the building of a world class training centre and youth academy and expanded the number of youth coaches. We've gone at least part of the way there but in Scotland we're not going to produce the same number or quality of players as the Dutch for many reasons out-with Rangers' control. It would take a massive change in Scotland to achieve that - and with devolution it is within our control to do so, but I doubt it will happen.

[Guest Northampton_loyalist]

I think Ajax are backed up by the whole Dutch system and culture. They also have been far less successful of late and certainly cannot compete with the big five either. They were also constantly challenged by a team bankrolled by Philips who didn't have the same system.

 

I agree Ajax have done well with this, but if it's an easy model to follow for everyone then why is everyone not following it? That's the trouble with any obvious solution. How can it make us the best if everyone else can do it - unless you can patent it?

 

 

 

I broadly agree with you but think we were making separate points. I was making the point that we should have not overspent by having a smaller, higher quality squad, while it seemed you were saying we should have allocated the overspend differently.

 

In any case, as far as I remember, our overspending was partly due to the building of a world class training centre and youth academy and expanded the number of youth coaches. We've gone at least part of the way there but in Scotland we're not going to produce the same number or quality of players as the Dutch for many reasons out-with Rangers' control. It would take a massive change in Scotland to achieve that - and with devolution it is within our control to do so, but I doubt it will happen.

 

Auchinhowie cost less than Flo, it contributed very little to our overspend and absolutely nothing to our current situation.

[calscot 0]

I thought it cost 17M compared to 12M for Flo minus 6M back. I would say that makes it significant and far more significant than Flo. If we hadn't built MP then our debt would be pretty manageable - but I'm really glad we did.

 

However, you could easily argue we played better without the facility...

[pete 2,499]

I thought Murray park cost 14m.

 

Anyway i have said for a while now that the Ajax youth system was a cut above the rest in the seventies and eighties, but were only placed as 9th best in Holland in a survey about a year ago. They are now trying to evaluate and change things to get to the top of the tree again. I think Feynoord has the best youth system at this moment when look at their first team. As Cal said the Dutch system produces these fantastic players. The Prof teams just polish the diamond.

 

The true success of the Ajax youth system of the seventies was that they were the first team to go out of their own region to pick the best of the crop of players from the whole of Holland. Once they got the talented players they wanted the Ajax 4-3-3 system was practised(Brainwashed) throughout the whole youth system so every player played in that system naturally without thinking.

 

When Marco van Basten was made manager a few years ago, Johan Cruiff was brought in to totally reconstruct the youth system. Johan Cruijff wanted full control of what happened in the youth setup but van Basten wouldn't accept that, so Cruijff resigned. F v\d Boer is now head trainer of the under 19 team.

[Super_Ally 0]

You'd be as well arguing with a brick wall. Calscot argues against all logic.

 

From the man who argues we should have gone gung-ho in the UEFA Cup final!

 

Early push for funniest user in the yearly awards? :fish:

[Guest Northampton_loyalist]

Auchinhowie cost �£14 million to build.

 

Flo cost �£12 million to buy, followed by a reputed �£45k a week for two seasons (approx �£4.7 million)

 

 

The �£6 million wasnt counted, so yeah, Flo was �£3 million or so less than our entire training centre

Edited August 28, 2010 by Northampton_loyalist