Rangers â?? The Fight Continues

[pete 2,499]

I may be a moron but I'm a handsome one.

 

I must admit you are more handsome on the Gersnet as on Rangers standard.

[amms 0]

You're taking my analogy to an unnecessary detail. It works on every level. Maybe Halfords is a bad example as I actually have a Boardman Team Carbon road bike from there. There's no competitions for potholed roads but if you want to talk off-road, lets compare a top end mountain bike with a dirt cheap £300 bike. Whatever the game, the best equipment helps. You're argument is a bit like arguing that you don't need top sportsmen to win the league as a bunch of top swimmers have no chance of winning at football.

Calscot your analogy is all over the place. Buy the bike you need to win the race youâ??re in, not some other race that needs a different bike. Iâ??ve no idea what your last sentence even means.

 

My point is that you wouldn't sell yourself short, why sell your football team short - unless you have no real affection for it?

Aha, tell me will it be â??sniff sniffâ?? next? Got to tell you I usually get the taig accusations within 50 posts, must try harder.

 

So you're saying we should just become another div 3 team? I don't get you.

 

What I'm saying is that fans need to think of the club and realise they need a decent budget to fly up the leagues. Pay peanuts and you'll get monkeys. You seem to be saying that we should just get used to being in the lower leagues. I disagree.

No, Iâ??ve no idea why you are trying to attribute that to me. It isnâ??t even close to what I said.

 

You need to find out what budget you have and spend it on the best you can get. That budget mostly depends on the loyalty of our fans - how much they will pay and how many will turn up. I sometimes get the impression that "loyal" is a meaningless word in Rangers circles even though many supporters clubs have it in their name.

Iâ??ve no idea how old you are but Iâ??m old enough to remember pre-Souness times and the crowds we got then. Weâ??ll lose support if we drop down to mid-table SPL far less Div 3. You can accuse those who choose to attend less frequently of a lack of loyalty, you might be correct, however itâ??ll happen no matter what you say.

 

I'd rather just bulldoze my way up the leagues with a far superior team due to 40k fans paying a decent amount for their tickets. Depends on the loyalty again.

You pay those leagues, and the clubs in them, far too little respect. There will be no bulldozing, weâ??ll need to fight hard and play well to win them, no matter what level of player we have.

[calscot 0]

Calscot your analogy is all over the place. Buy the bike you need to win the race you’re in, not some other race that needs a different bike. I’ve no idea what your last sentence even means.

 

Pretty much exactly what I was saying, you were just messing with what the race was. I don't know why.

 

Aha, tell me will it be ‘sniff sniff’ next? Got to tell you I usually get the taig accusations within 50 posts, must try harder.

 

Bloody hell, you are a sensitive soul. Where is the taig accusation? Actually you remind me of the story which could be about anything but let's go for a German trying to infiltrate the British forces. The sergeant gets suspicious and lines up the troops saying, "Men, we have a German in our midst", and immediately the German shouts, "I'm not a German I'm British!".

 

You're certainly right about not understanding much of my post. Perhaps you should read it again.

 

No, I’ve no idea why you are trying to attribute that to me. It isn’t even close to what I said.

 

You said, "For me it isn't a lack of ambition that means we'll need to sign some Div 3 players, it's the opposite." It's all there in the thread... Are you retracting that now?

 

I’ve no idea how old you are but I’m old enough to remember pre-Souness times and the crowds we got then. We’ll lose support if we drop down to mid-table SPL far less Div 3. You can accuse those who choose to attend less frequently of a lack of loyalty, you might be correct, however it’ll happen no matter what you say.

 

I think there is a massive difference to the pre-Souness days. The whole club lacked ambition and the audience dwindled - although Celtic weren't doing much better. I'd even go so far to say the whole of Europe was in a bit of a slump which allowed the likes of Aberdeen and Dundee Utd to be big players there.

 

This is desperate times where we need a show of loyalty. We need to SAVE the club and get it back to the top - a lot of people are showing they just don't care enough about that.

 

You pay those leagues, and the clubs in them, far too little respect. There will be no bulldozing, we’ll need to fight hard and play well to win them, no matter what level of player we have.

 

I don't think so. Even with years of downsizing the squad then going through a horrendous season, being deducted 10 points, losing three games post administration, we were still comfortably better than all the top league could offer outside of Celtic. The gap between Rangers and the rest of the SPL outside Rangers has been pretty big for years. If we kept the same level of team, I can't see how that would be harder in Division 3. It just doesn't make sense.

 

It may not be a walkover every week but winning the league comfortably should be highly probable. That's without any disrespect to Div 3 - they can't hope to finish above a team like Rangers.

 

BTW you're also implying that Man U, Man City, Barcelona and Real Madrid would struggle...

[calscot 0]

1-What's the Boardman like? I assumed it was just a crappy BSO with Boardman's name on it to shift units.

 

Boardman bikes are pretty good and get great reviews. Their top bikes are about four grand and they win a lot of competitions especially triathlons and iron man.

 

The team carbon is pretty good, not the best frame but excellent for the money. It comes with SRAM Rival groupset and Ritchey parts. I've upgraded the wheels, tyres, seat and peddles and got the weight down to 7.5kg.

 

2-'dirt cheap' £300 bike? God, I'm poor.

 

No it just depends on your perception of expensive and cheap. You won't see many people in cycle races with £300 bikes - it's pretty easy to spend well over £200 on a service. The front fork alone on my mountain bike would set you back about £400 and that's bottom of the range for Fox.

 

The seat, peddles, wheels and tyres for my boardman set me back £700 and that's shopping online at well below rrp (the wheels rrp were £600). Even my Brompton was £750.

 

Check out your local bike club and you'll see few bikes below a grand and their will be loads that cost well over two grand.

 

You may be poor but I doubt it; you probably just have other priorities...

 

If I said a car that was £4500 new was dirt cheap, would you agree?

 

3- AMMS ain't suggesting we send out 11 mugs recruited from the juniors, he's saying we can win D3 without hiring and paying SPL standard players.

 

He was saying to hire Div 3 players - on average that will get you half way up Div 3. To have a good chance to get to div 2 you really need div 2 players or better - after all two div 2 teams join you in relegation...

[amms 0]

Pretty much exactly what I was saying, you were just messing with what the race was. I don't know why.

Okay, as long as you know what you meant.*

 

Bloody hell, you are a sensitive soul. Where is the taig accusation? Actually you remind me of the story which could be about anything but let's go for a German trying to infiltrate the British forces. The sergeant gets suspicious and lines up the troops saying, "Men, we have a German in our midst", and immediately the German shouts, "I'm not a German I'm British!".

 

You're certainly right about not understanding much of my post. Perhaps you should read it again.

So by “unless you’ve no real affection for it?” you were implying what exactly? Your helpful Dad’s Army sketch hasn’t really changed my mind on what you meant either.

 

You said, "For me it isn't a lack of ambition that means we'll need to sign some Div 3 players, it's the opposite." It's all there in the thread... Are you retracting that now?

Right, and from "For me it isn't a lack of ambition that means we'll need to sign some Div 3 players, it's the opposite." You get “So you're saying we should just become another div 3 team?” and you wonder why I’m struggling to understand what you wrote. Tell me if we joined the English League do you think it might be an idea to sign some players who had played there before and knew the setup?

When Graeme Souness joined Rangers his best signing was Walter Smith, that’s not just with hindsight, he said it at the time, he needed someone who knew the league and the personalities in it. Souness was an exceptional footballer who had captained the finest team in the world at that time and just left the best league in the world. He knew that alone wasn’t enough.

 

 

I think there is a massive difference to the pre-Souness days. The whole club lacked ambition and the audience dwindled - although Celtic weren't doing much better. I'd even go so far to say the whole of Europe was in a bit of a slump which allowed the likes of Aberdeen and Dundee Utd to be big players there.

 

This is desperate times where we need a show of loyalty. We need to SAVE the club and get it back to the top - a lot of people are showing they just don't care enough about that.

No actually there are many parallels to the pre-Souness period both economically and socially. On top of that we’ve wall-to-wall TV coverage of some of the finest football in the world available to compete with now too. You are naïve if you think our attendances won’t fall. That’s not a question of loyalty, it’s a harsh reality.

 

I don't think so. Even with years of downsizing the squad then going through a horrendous season, being deducted 10 points, losing three games post administration, we were still comfortably better than all the top league could offer outside of Celtic. The gap between Rangers and the rest of the SPL outside Rangers has been pretty big for years. If we kept the same level of team, I can't see how that would be harder in Division 3. It just doesn't make sense.

 

It may not be a walkover every week but winning the league comfortably should be highly probable. That's without any disrespect to Div 3 - they can't hope to finish above a team like Rangers.

 

BTW you're also implying that Man U, Man City, Barcelona and Real Madrid would struggle...

You can’t keep the same level of team in Div 3 as you have today, it’s simply not possible. By replacing our current squad with unambitious SPL players, because that’s all who’d want to play in Div 3, you are taking a huge risk.

If that’s where we end up, we should build our squad around a core of better players but we’ll need some players with Div 3 experience. See that "they can't hope to finish above a team like Rangers" attitude is the problem. Have more respect for other teams, it wasn't that long ago people were saying administration/liquidation/oblivion can't happen to a team like Rangers.

 

BTW Are you implying we’re as good as Man U, Man City, Barcelona and Real Madrid?

[calscot 0]

So by “unless you’ve no real affection for it?” you were implying what exactly? Your helpful Dad’s Army sketch hasn’t really changed my mind on what you meant either.

 

Firstly, the "you've" was generic and not personal as in "you've got to be silly to put your money in a Greek bank". Secondly, it's as it says: if you're affectionate about something you'll spend money on it, if you're not so affectionate you will spend a lot less. Pretty simple. That was related the whole thing about the bike. You often spend proper money to give yourself a chance to succeed - unless you don't really care.

 

You can take it any way you like but if I wanted to call you a taig why would I write it in a such convoluted way that actually means something in support of my argument? Unless I'm some sort of genius at veiled insults... Also if I wanted to call you a taig, why wouldn't I just call you one? Why would I then try to change it to mean something else?

 

Like I said, you seem to be jumpy on the subject and looking everywhere for it - like other comedy sketches where two people are having a normal conversation and one suddenly and aggressively says, "did you just call me a ...?"

 

Right, and from "For me it isn't a lack of ambition that means we'll need to sign some Div 3 players, it's the opposite." You get “So you're saying we should just become another div 3 team?” and you wonder why I’m struggling to understand what you wrote. Tell me if we joined the English League do you think it might be an idea to sign some players who had played there before and knew the setup?

When Graeme Souness joined Rangers his best signing was Walter Smith, that’s not just with hindsight, he said it at the time, he needed someone who knew the league and the personalities in it. Souness was an exceptional footballer who had captained the finest team in the world at that time and just left the best league in the world. He knew that alone wasn’t enough.

 

That's not how you came across before but this makes a bit more sense although I still disagree. I agree that getting some advice a la Walter Smith is fine, but it doesn't mean you need to use the players. Souness raided England remember and they were players of a far higher standard than the rest of the league.

 

No actually there are many parallels to the pre-Souness period both economically and socially. On top of that we’ve wall-to-wall TV coverage of some of the finest football in the world available to compete with now too. You are naïve if you think our attendances won’t fall. That’s not a question of loyalty, it’s a harsh reality.

 

It may be harsh reality, but the reality is definitely a lack of loyalty - the glory hunter hypothesis. How can you be loyal and not renew your season ticket when your club needs you just because your in a lower division? This is not normal relegation by Dunfermline, this is a one off catastrophic event, and the solution is to return as quickly as possible to the top flight - all we need is loyalty and with 40k+ fans it's pretty much a fait accompli.

 

You can’t keep the same level of team in Div 3 as you have today, it’s simply not possible.

 

That's a different argument to what we've been saying. You gave the scenario that we could have players at ANY level. But anyway, just because we can't keep the same squad, doesn't mean we shouldn't go for the best we can afford - and how much we can afford depends on our fans.

 

By replacing our current squad with unambitious SPL players, because that’s all who’d want to play in Div 3, you are taking a huge risk.

 

Perhaps but there is no prescription for this, it's a strange scenario. But you don't get to play in the SPL because you are not a cut above the 3rd division. I'd put money on the best side winning. It doesn't always happen but over a season it's a good bet when there is such a big gap of ability.

 

If that’s where we end up, we should build our squad around a core of better players but we’ll need some players with Div 3 experience.

 

I see the point but don't see the need. I'd rather have the better players.

 

See that "they can't hope to finish above a team like Rangers" attitude is the problem. Have more respect for other teams

 

That's not disrespectful, it's based on obvious probabilities. Rangers finish comfortably ahead of the other SPL teams every season - with the same type of team (which we're using in this scenario) you can't expect anything else from the 3rd division no matter how much you respect them. There's respect and there's just going over the top. I always respect the other team on a game by game basis - just read my past posts. However, over a season I'm not going to pretend that Rangers would struggle to win the 3rd division. There is just no point.

 

That could change if we buy lesser players but not normally. My point is that if fans are loyal we will be able to afford a team that would challenge for at least second in the SPL never mind div 3.

 

, it wasn't that long ago people were saying administration/liquidation/oblivion can't happen to a team like Rangers.

 

Not quite the same thing. Yes a proper Rangers could finish 3rd or worse in the 3rd division. It could happen but it's very unlikely. If you knobbled the team then it becomes far more likely. For liquidation, Rangers were knobbled by HMRC, SDM and CW.

 

BTW Are you implying we’re as good as Man U, Man City, Barcelona and Real Madrid?

 

No, you said a team "of any level" would struggle in the 3rd division. The "any level" implied those teams would also. I disagreed and consequently found your assertion to be false. Just as I did for Rangers. There is a level that would win it reasonably comfortably, I would want to go for the highest level we can to surpass that instead of going down to their level.

Edited June 14, 2012 by calscot

[andy steel 0]

No it just depends on your perception of expensive and cheap. You won't see many people in cycle races with £300 bikes - it's pretty easy to spend well over £200 on a service. The front fork alone on my mountain bike would set you back about £400 and that's bottom of the range for Fox.

 

The seat, peddles, wheels and tyres for my boardman set me back £700 and that's shopping online at well below rrp (the wheels rrp were £600). Even my Brompton was £750.

 

Check out your local bike club and you'll see few bikes below a grand and their will be loads that cost well over two grand.

 

I would love a Rosa...since its about 2,500 minimum for one I will keep dreaming!

[amms 0]

Calscot, it's been a long and difficult day, I've not got the emotional energy to do this anymore. In future if you reply to a post of mine and use the word "you're" I'll not assume you mean me, despite most of the English speaking world thinking that way too. I'll know better next time.

We might well have the Division 3 conversation again unfortunately, perhaps not, we'll see.

 

And that's an insane amount of money to spend on a bike!!!!

[der Berliner 3,240]

Fight continuing ... we should start clubbing the media somewhat. For each and every article about us has the same rubbish ...

 

Green completed his £5.5million purchase of Rangers' assets hours after the 140-year-old club was officially consigned to liquidation.

 

if that was the case, there would be no Rangers after administration. But it works well for the "You lose your history!" - brigade.