Slightly concerned about feedback from Green's NI trip

[GovanAllan 0]

I've nothing against a lot of songs, colours and religions but that doesn't mean I like them or want them.

 

I'd be the same if you wanted Rangers fans to sing "You'll never walk alone", wanted the club to change the away strips to bright green and wanted to associate the club with Southern Ireland and/or the Catholic church.

 

I'd be the same if you wanted Rangers fans to sing "Onward Christian soldiers", have a black strip with red lapels and associate the club with the Salvation Army.

 

I'd be the same if you wanted Rangers fans to sing some Muslim song, have a strip that has long trousers and a shirt which goes down to your knees and associate the club with Islam.

 

I don't know what you mean about Ulster Bears thinking they were on the wrong site - is it because they expect to be treated as extra special? I don't get it.

 

I didn't call you a liar but you as much as lied when you wrote, "You've as much as called anyone who wants an Orange strip bigots for wanting to be associated with the OO".

 

You can have a problem with whatever you like. Or you could chill instead.

 

Cal mate we are never going to agree on this but the debate was good.

 

But I do think some on here should point out that the Bears from Ulster will always be welcome, because the feeling coming off this thread is we don't want you or your politics. Knowing full well that you can't separate politics from everyday life its involved with everything we do.

[Max Rebo's Big Blue Nose 0]

If you've no problem with the OO then why the need for this thread then?

 

The Club aren't coming out with a statement saying they are joining the OO or letting them have meetings in the Blue room they have been asked by a large section of our support if they could be recognised next year with a 3rd kit in the colour they hold dear, for more reasons than some of the crap I've read on here. We've been banging on for years that the club has to reconnect with its fans well here you have it in the cold light of day and seems some don't want that anymore, or least they do but only if it falls into this we must be nice to everybody rule that's sprung up.

 

Should the club send out a questionnaire with your ST so they can vet you and make sure your appropriate to support Rangers? Of course not that's bloody stupid we take all fans with open arms the good and BAD bits, because they are one of us first a Bear.

 

So then the only objection would be that your worried what the fans of some other team will think, and to be quite honest I couldn't give a monkeys what they think of me. They see a Rangers top and their mind is made up and nothing I will say or do will change that, I realised that a long time ago and I'm happy in my skin because of it, some more on here need to start getting happy in their skin and stop being worried what everyone outside the Rangers family think.

 

Sorry but we're going round the houses here. I've no great problem with the OO (apart from the occasional bit of traffic disruprtion) but this thread is here becuase some fans are uneasy about the our club being connected with such an organisation with the possiblitity of an orange strip (that's what it would be).

 

For the record I don't care what other fans think. That's not what this is about.

[Max Rebo's Big Blue Nose 0]

Cal mate we are never going to agree on this but the debate was good.

 

But I do think some on here should point out that the Bears from Ulster will always be welcome, because the feeling coming off this thread is we don't want you or your politics. Knowing full well that you can't separate politics from everyday life its involved with everything we do.

 

I don't agree sorry. If football is part of everyday life, I for one can seperate politics from my team. And of course Ulster bears will always be welcome but please leave the politics on the ferry please

[D'Artagnan 173]

AMMS â?? I assured you I would give you a reply so here goes.

 

I have spent a lot of time in Ulster over the years, particularly within the Protestant community, which has provided me with considerable insight and understanding of that community. But I would not ask you, or expect you to take my subjective experience as gospel so to speak.

 

Hence why a number of times throughout this thread I have recommended Ruth Dudley Edwards book â?? Faithful Tribe â?? as a worthy read for anyone. Ruth Dudley Edwards is a southern Irish journalist and broadcaster who was raised a Roman Catholic, she was given a â??warts and all insightâ? into the Orange Order and other Loyal Institutions. Her book, written after several years study, not only presents a clear a picture of those Loyal Institutions but of life in Northern Ireland, particular with regard to culture and its significance. She now appears regularly on talk shows as an apologist (from the Greek to defend not apologise) for the Orange Order. Perhaps those in this thread who labelled the OO sectarian may wish to ponder why she would do this.

 

I mention this book so that if you have any doubt as to the veracity of what I'm about to say, you are more than welcome to check for yourself.

 

And now to why I am ashamed by some of what is written in this thread.

 

As others have attested to throughout this thread the colour orange is a significant symbol within Protestant communities in Northern Ireland and not specifically to the Orange Order. The Boyne celebrations are of course a big event amongst the Protestant community I wonder how many posters here know that the Orange Order never fought at the Battle of the Boyne or that the Pope was actually an ally of King William of Orange at the aforesaid battle (within the League of Augsburg)

 

As Der Berliner pointed out there is much misunderstanding about that battle both in the past and to how it is perceived today. But irrespective of this, orange is a colour which has significance amongst the widespread Protestant community of Northern Ireland â?? its significance comes from William of Orange â?? not the Orange Order â?? furthermore it significance within that culture cannot be underestimated.

 

And its a culture which is continually under attack. The bombs, the bullet and the campaigns of terror could not defeat the Protestant people of Ulster, but the tactics have changed. The attacks now are on their culture â?? quite simply they are trying to extinguish it. Edwards devotes several chapters in her book to this subject such is its importance.

 

Of course culture doesn't live in books, it lives in the hearts and the minds of a community. It is expressed through song, through cultural events, through banners flags and other symbols. Of course if you stop such cultural events, ban songs or flags or symbols you are well on the way to stifling such expression of that culture. Job done.

 

It is important of course we recognise that when we talk of Ulster we are referring to Ulster Scots. That shared heritage, history and religion was of course, formally recognised under the Mitchell Agreement. Such formal aligning with the people of Scotland was a source of great celebration for the people of Northern Ireland. There is probably no better expression or symbolism of that shared heritage than that contained in the words of the Sash. Yet in this thread it is described as follows ..

 

The Sash is a terrible song which to those not in the know, probably comes across as a bit gay. I've nothing against gay people, but I'm not gay and don't want my club to be thought of as being a gay one - and the same applies to the OO

.

 

Rangers Football Club are an intrinsic part of the Protestant community of Northern Ireland. Outside of our native Glasgow, Belfast is the largest Rangers supporting city in the world. When Scottish MPs are silent you will often find Ulster MP's speaking out in defence of our club or its support. If Rangers were to bring out an orange coloured top the Protestant community of Northern Ireland would consider it a great honour. Due to the geographics and logistical problems, Ulster Bears spend more money, more of their time and overcome greater obstacles than the majority of us in Scotland in their desire to follow follow.

 

I think there are a number of posts in this thread which display a lack of understanding, respect and sensitivity towards what a section of our support holds dear.

 

Hence my shame.

Edited October 4, 2012 by D'Artagnan

[Juancornetto 1]

Cal mate we are never going to agree on this but the debate was good.

 

But I do think some on here should point out that the Bears from Ulster will always be welcome, because the feeling coming off this thread is we don't want you or your politics. Knowing full well that you can't separate politics from everyday life its involved with everything we do.

 

To me football is an escape from politics, religion, work, the Mrs and the kids but I'm aware that it doesn't represent the same escape for everybody. The problem comes in when Rangers Football Club becomes the platform for peoples political and religious views. No amount of justification or tenuous links from the bygone days of yore will ever make that right or acceptable in my book and that's that. It doesn't matter whether you're from Belfast, Beith or Bangkok you are free to support your team and in that we're all equal. With that freedom comes the responsibility of representing the club and again in that we are all equal.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Juancornetto

[der Berliner 3,290]

And to add to Juancornetto above, there was this great quote from another Bear ...

 

Every time I see someone wearing a Rangers top it makes me smile. It can even make my day when I’m far away from Scotland. And I don’t give a second thought to their politics, creed, religion or nationality – ultimately I have a bond with them on the one thing that transcends all – the Famous Glasgow Rangers. My team.

[johnnyk 158]

I love a good sing song about Rangers, I don't mind if it's to do with religion or not as long as it's to do with Rangers. I love the sash, king billys walls, etc as I do love, every other Saturday, penny arcade, Wolverhampton town. I have had many great nights at Orange clubs and non Orange clubs. Some people always go to far but that's the case in anything IMO, and these are the ones who rarely go to the games.

 

Different places have different views to religion and it's the way some are brought up be it good or bad. Our club does have protestant history and I see no reason why fans can't sing about it in some of the songs. I can see why some fans don't care about it if they have no interest in it and fair enough but it is there and always will/should be, again IMO. If some fans don't like it then don't sing the songs or (buy an orange rangers top) but I see no reason why they should complain when others do or want to. It's just my opinion and I know some won't like it but I see no reason to change it.

[amms 0]

If you've no problem with the OO then why the need for this thread then?

 

The Club aren't coming out with a statement saying they are joining the OO or letting them have meetings in the Blue room they have been asked by a large section of our support if they could be recognised next year with a 3rd kit in the colour they hold dear, for more reasons than some of the crap I've read on here. We've been banging on for years that the club has to reconnect with its fans well here you have it in the cold light of day and seems some don't want that anymore, or least they do but only if it falls into this we must be nice to everybody rule that's sprung up.

 

Should the club send out a questionnaire with your ST so they can vet you and make sure your appropriate to support Rangers? Of course not that's bloody stupid we take all fans with open arms the good and BAD bits, because they are one of us first a Bear.

 

So then the only objection would be that your worried what the fans of some other team will think, and to be quite honest I couldn't give a monkeys what they think of me. They see a Rangers top and their mind is made up and nothing I will say or do will change that, I realised that a long time ago and I'm happy in my skin because of it, some more on here need to start getting happy in their skin and stop being worried what everyone outside the Rangers family think.

 

That's an interesting point and, I wonder, if that's actually true. Do we really accept the 'bad bits' of someone simply because they support Rangers and if we do should we? Should supporting Rangers transcend all other social behavioural norms we might expect? I don't think so.

 

Anyway, as others have said this has nothing to do with what supporters of other clubs think, fuck em, it's to do with what many Rangers think.

[amms 0]

AMMS – I assured you I would give you a reply so here goes.

 

I have spent a lot of time in Ulster over the years' date=' particularly within the Protestant community, which has provided me with considerable insight and understanding of that community. But I would not ask you, or expect you to take my subjective experience as gospel so to speak.

 

Hence why a number of times throughout this thread I have recommended Ruth Dudley Edwards book – Faithful Tribe – as a worthy read for anyone. Ruth Dudley Edwards is a southern Irish journalist and broadcaster who was raised a Roman Catholic, she was given a “warts and all insight” into the Orange Order and other Loyal Institutions. Her book, written after several years study, not only presents a clear a picture of those Loyal Institutions but of life in Northern Ireland, particular with regard to culture and its significance. She now appears regularly on talk shows as an apologist (from the Greek to defend not apologise) for the Orange Order. Perhaps those in this thread who labelled the OO sectarian may wish to ponder why she would do this.

 

I mention this book so that if you have any doubt as to the veracity of what I'm about to say, you are more than welcome to check for yourself.

 

And now to why I am ashamed by some of what is written in this thread.

 

As others have attested to throughout this thread the colour orange is a significant symbol within Protestant communities in Northern Ireland and not specifically to the Orange Order. The Boyne celebrations are of course a big event amongst the Protestant community I wonder how many posters here know that the Orange Order never fought at the Battle of the Boyne or that the Pope was actually an ally of King William of Orange at the aforesaid battle (within the League of Augsburg)

 

As Der Berliner pointed out there is much misunderstanding about that battle both in the past and to how it is perceived today. But irrespective of this, orange is a colour which has significance amongst the widespread Protestant community of Northern Ireland – its significance comes from William of Orange – not the Orange Order – furthermore it significance within that culture cannot be underestimated.

 

And its a culture which is continually under attack. The bombs, the bullet and the campaigns of terror could not defeat the Protestant people of Ulster, but the tactics have changed. The attacks now are on their culture – quite simply they are trying to extinguish it. Edwards devotes several chapters in her book to this subject such is its importance.

 

Of course culture doesn't live in books, it lives in the hearts and the minds of a community. It is expressed through song, through cultural events, through banners flags and other symbols. Of course if you stop such cultural events, ban songs or flags or symbols you are well on the way to stifling such expression of that culture. Job done.

 

It is important of course we recognise that when we talk of Ulster we are referring to Ulster Scots. That shared heritage, history and religion was of course, formally recognised under the Mitchell Agreement. Such formal aligning with the people of Scotland was a source of great celebration for the people of Northern Ireland. There is probably no better expression or symbolism of that shared heritage than that contained in the words of the Sash. Yet in this thread it is described as follows ..

 

.

 

Rangers Football Club are an intrinsic part of the Protestant community of Northern Ireland. Outside of our native Glasgow, Belfast is the largest Rangers supporting city in the world. When Scottish MPs are silent you will often find Ulster MP's speaking out in defence of our club or its support. If Rangers were to bring out an orange coloured top the Protestant community of Northern Ireland would consider it a great honour. Due to the geographics and logistical problems, Ulster Bears spend more money, more of their time and overcome greater obstacles than the majority of us in Scotland in their desire to follow follow.

 

I think there are a number of posts in this thread which display a lack of understanding, respect and sensitivity towards what a section of our support holds dear.

 

Hence my shame.[/quote']

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

Some background on me might be appropriate. I'm not speaking entirely from ignorance, I lived in Northern Ireland for 4 years, met my wife there and I'm still a very regular visitor for both business and social reasons. I agree entirely that the colour orange and the various loyal institutes hold a significant cultural and social position in Northern Ireland. I'd add though that position is quite different from the one they hold here, and that's a significant point in this debate.

 

I've read The Faithful Tribe as well as various Dudley Edwards columns over the years. She's an interesting writer and holds an almost unique position in Irish literature. She's hugely Anglophile and very contrary, that doesn't of course make her wrong. I think her book backs up my position though; their leadership and PR repel those not actually involved. Basically what she says is that most members are decent, law abiding, normal, friendly people, however their leadership is naive, intransigent and arrogant. It's been a few years since I read it so I might be mis-remembering.

 

The late 1990s and first decade of this century were simply a public relations disaster for the Orange movement, they were outflanked and out thought by Irish nationalists and they've yet to recover from that. The mainstream Unionist politicians advised them appallingly, even when they were in the right they managed to make themselves look bad. Frankly they've only themselves to blame for that. I agree their culture has been under 'attack' both literally and metaphorically for a while now, however how they chose to combat that has been very, very poor in my opinion.

 

So I understand why you might be annoyed at some of what's been written on this thread.

 

Let me point out a few things though. I disagree that Belfast is the second largest Rangers supporting city in the world, I'm curious if there is actually anything empirical to show where is though. I'd say Edinburgh and Dundee will both have more people who'd say Rangers are their team. I was appalled when first moving to Belfast to find everyone supported Man Utd or Liverpool, I'd just assumed at least half of them supported us. Now many will say Rangers are their 'Scottish team' but I don't count that, we're number one or nothing! It's not a major point but worth making.

 

Most Rangers fans don't live in Northern Ireland and Rangers don't play there. The reputation and cultural significance the Orange Institutes hold here in Scotland is very different indeed. The OO simply don't hold a strong place in the lives of most Rangers supporters, and for a percentage today they view the OO negatively. We can debate if that's fair or not if you want but it doesn't change it being so.

 

So any opposition to an orange strip must be viewed through the prism of present day Scotland, because that's where most of us are. If the OO are misunderstood and badly maligned it's not up to Rangers to fix that.

[simplythebest 0]

If an orange top comes out, don't buy it if you don't like it. Is that not enough really?