That old Billy Boys thing

[maineflyer 0]

Anyone like chestnuts, especially old ones? I've got one here and I think it's about time it was dealt with properly. It's called The Billy Boys. I recently wrote elsewhere........

 

For me, the so-called banning of TBB will always be symbolic of two things...

 

1. The contrived witch hunt against the Rangers community.

2. The disgraceful capitulation of a weak and misguided club leadership.

 

Until and unless it returns, there will continue to be a wrong that needs to be righted. This is a truly seminal issue and must be addressed.

 

 

I believe this to be true and that there are more important issues involved than will ever be resolved by a purely semantic analysis. I'd like to raise some with the rest of our Gersnet members. It's my opinion that we need to get over this hurdle and be able to sing this song again, even if it is with slightly modified words. However, rather than regurgitate what I've said many times already, I thought I would share the thoughts of another very commited bear who made a project of trying to uncover the well-concealed truth of this matter. He posted the following on another site some time ago ............ apologies, it seems this will cover about three different posts.

 

 

 

Right folks, I'll give you my views on things and also feed you some info that I have received so far, I would have preferred to held this info back until further down the line but on second thoughts, given the growing unrest among the support re banned songs/banners etc, i think some of it should be known now so that people can use it as basic facts in the matter.

 

At this point I'd advise you to put the kettle as you are in for a long read ;D

 

 

Firstly, my views on the (alleged) banning of TBB in all shape and form......

 

In the aftermath of the Osasuna farce, a meeting was held at Ibrox, in attendance were RST, RSA, and other various bears including GMS. The only person I know of that was there representing the club was Martin Bain.

 

In the course of this meeting (and this info came from GMS), Martin Bain (allegedly) held up and waved about a sheet of paper saying that he had received a letter from UEFA stating that TBB has been banned in all forms including the tune at any game that Rangers are involved in (including games under the jurisdiction of the SFA/SPL). I asked GMS if any of the others at that meeting got to read the contents of the letter and the answer was NO. I also asked if any of the others present had requested or received a copy of this letter, again the answer was NO.

 

Now let�s just think about this for a minute and ask some questions.

 

Did the above actually happen as described by GMS?

 

Or

 

Did the club come out with a 'You scratch my back, and I'll scratch your back' attitude and in doing so, ask those present to spread it about that things have happened as described above?

 

 

Not long after this, all the stuff started appearing about the new SPL/SFA regulations regarding 'Unacceptable Behaviour' that were soon going to be published. It was also being touted that there was going to be a 'banned' list of songs published. I then contacted GMS asking him if he knew of any Rangers friendly solicitors that would be prepared to start asking the club questions with regards to the way the fans were being treated by the club in general on the grounds of Human Rights. My request was completely ignored, he didn't even bother replying. It was at this point that the penny started dropping for me, I began to realise that certain people or certain organisations, despite what they claim, did not have the best interests of the Rangers support at heart. Certain people and groups were only out to feather their own nest or were only doing things for the kudos.

 

At this point I'd like to state that at no point during my subsequent continued correspondence with the club have I challenged TBB (as we knew it) being banned. I know, like the majority of bears that the problem has only arisen through peoples ignorance / lack of knowledge / determination to twist historical facts to suit their own agenda, i.e. giving the perception to the general public that when Rangers fans sing the word '******' they actually mean 'Catholics'.

 

However, I am one of the ones that are prepared to move with the times a bit and accept that there is no longer any place for singing the line 'Up to our knees in ****** blood'. What I have been challenging the club on is the alleged banning in all forms. I am currently trying to get the club to state that the original song (We are the people), which was later ba*tardised to become TBB, is not banned at Ibrox or considered offensive by Rangers and as such shouldn't be sung anywhere.

 

I am also challenging the club on the general welfare of the paying customers (lets face it that�s what we are) being neglected by Rangers as they continually allow customers to be harassed and bullied by Rock Steady or Strathclyde Police without any avenue of recourse. Whilst in the confines of Ibrox, as paying customers, Rangers have a 'Duty of care' towards our welfare but it would seem that they are not interested.

 

--------------------

 

So moving onto my correspondence with the club and the SFA. I shall post the relevant questions that I have put forward, list the response and analyse.

 

The following snippets are excerpts from the letters received by me as I have not yet scanned these letters onto my computer (scanner is fu*ked). I will at some point in the future scan all documentation for viewing, in the meantime you are just going to have to trust me, if in doubt Sentry and PB can vouch for me just now.

 

 

 

I sent off a letter to both Rangers and the SFA at the same time way back in August 07. In my letter to the SFA I asked them to clarify if TBB has been banned by UEFA in all forms in Scotland (as being suggested by Rangers), pointing out that others Scottish teams regularly sing their own versions, some even more offensive than ours.

 

I also asked them if the SFA find the original song (We are the people) which does not contain any offensive lyrics to be offensive, stating that Rangers are claiming that it is the responsibility of the SFA to determine this.

 

 

 

In my first letter to Kenny Scott my initial questions were as follows......

 

1. Please state clearly (including justification) which songs / chants, normally sung by Rangers fans, are now deemed unacceptable at football stadia throughout Scotland under the SFA / SPL regulations?

 

2. Please state clearly (including justification) which flags / banners, normally displayed by Rangers fans are now deemed unacceptable at football stadia throughout Scotland under the SFA / SPL regulations?

 

His response was......

 

ââ?¬Å?1. Rangers Football Club appreciate the difficulties encountered by supporters in trying to understand what is and what is not acceptable under the new guidelines. Despite this however the club is not in a position to state unequivocally which songs and chants are acceptable and which are unacceptable. What we would like to point out is that the Club policy is and will remain that we prefer supporters to sing songs about Rangers Football Club and about football in general. It is not only what the Club thinks is acceptable or unacceptable that matters anymore. Given the interest of UEFA and the SPL in the behaviour of our supporters at games both at Ibrox Stadium and away from home it is the view point of these and other objective observers which can bring the Club into difficulties. What Rangers Football Club would ask supporters is to think about what they are singing and what others may thing of particular songs. Where some people may consider it regrettable it is now the opinion of others which matters on the issue.

 

2. You also ask me to state clearly which flags and banners normally displayed by Rangers fans are now deemed unacceptable at football stadia throughout Scotland under the SFA/SPL regulations. There is nothing contained in these regulations which specifically relates to any particular type of flag or banner. It has long been the position that flags of any nationality which do not contain any added words or slogans which others may find offensive are allowed in stadia across Scotland. I see no reason why this should change in the future. If you have any difficulties regarding particular flags please do not hesitate to address your concerns to me in order that I am able to discuss the issue with you.�

 

He also went on to state�..

 

ââ?¬Å?My final point relates to the final paragraph of your letter in which you indicate that Rangers Football Club have a duty to fully inform yourself and all other season ticket holders of said SPL Regulations. What I can tell you is thei Club more so than any other in Scotland I believe has fulfilled its obligation under the SPL Regulations regarding the issuing of statements and publication of such statements in all match day programmes and similar Club publications indicating that it will not tolerate any form of unacceptable conduct. In addition there has been widespread coverage of the new Regulations in the wider media and the subsequent discussion has been well documented. I do not believe the Club has anything further which it is required to do in regard to notification of supporters in respect of the new SPL Regulations.ââ?¬Â

[maineflyer 0]

Post Number 2....

 

With regards to point 2 (and this may be of interest to anyone connected with the Dublin RSC......

 

ââ?¬Å?It has long been the position that flags of any nationality which do not contain any added words or slogans which others may find offensive are allowed in stadia across Scotland.ââ?¬Â

 

Therefore shall we take it as read that upon receiving complaints from Rangers fans with regards to the usual treatment they are subjected to at Celtic Park whilst displaying the Union Flag, Mr. Scott will take up our fight as these flags are deemed acceptable to be displayed by the SPL/SFA?

 

ââ?¬Å?If you have any difficulties regarding particular flags please do not hesitate to address your concerns to me in order that I am able to discuss the issue with you.ââ?¬Â

 

Is this inferring that should we be offended by any flag or banner at Ibrox Park being displayed by Celtic fans, upon passing on our complaint to Jim Hannah (fans liaison officer), he will in turn seek (through Kenny Scott) the immediate removal of said offending flag/banner?

 

 

-------------------

 

 

So with regards to songs (I�m dealing with fans welfare as a separate issue completely), part of my 2nd letter (in response to his reply above) to Kenny Scott went as follows�..

 

 

ââ?¬Å?My initial request was in seeking clarification from the Club as to what is deemed acceptable with regards to songs, flags, and banners being sung or displayed by Rangers supporters both at home and away. As you will see, my initial letter was dated before the season kicked off and my concerns have been further been highlighted on several occasions throughout the season so far where the media have falsely stated that Rangers supporters have been guilty of singing songs that the Club have stated are sectarian. These claims by the media have so far gone unchallenged by Rangers and once again the supporters are portrayed as having brought shame upon the club.

 

The first statement from your letter that I�d like to discuss is as follows:

 

ââ?¬Å?Rangers Football Club appreciate the difficulties encountered by supporters in trying to understand what is and what is not acceptable under the new guidelines. Despite this however the Club is not in a position to state unequivocally which songs and chants are acceptable and which are unacceptable. What we would like to point out is that the Club policy is and will remain that we would prefer supporters to sing songs about Rangers Football Club and about football in generalââ?¬Â

 

I would like to point out that my request for clarification was in relation to ââ?¬Å?songs about Rangers Football Club and about football in generalââ?¬Â and not anything else so therefore I find it bizarre that the Club would adopt the stance of ââ?¬Å?the Club is not in a position to state unequivocally which songs and chants are acceptable and which are unacceptableââ?¬Â.

For example, can the Club clarify that the following song is acceptable by the Club to be sung by Rangers supporters as it only contains lyrics relating to Rangers Football Club and football in general? After all, by your own admission in your statement, ââ?¬Å?the Club policy is and will remain that we would prefer supporters to sing songs about Rangers Football Club and about football in generalââ?¬Â,

 

 

We are the people

 

We are the people who sing of victory

We speak of football glories from Kilmarnock to Dundee

We follow Glasgow Rangers our hearts are strong and true

For we are the people who cheer the boys in blue

 

Hello, Hello, we are the Rangers boys

Hello, Hello, you�ll know us by our noise

We follow Glasgow Rangers our hearts are strong and true

For we are the people who cheer the boys in blue

 

We�ll be there at Ibrox when Rangers take the field

They�ll follow onto triumph as we know they�ll never lose

And 60,000 voices will cheer the whole game through

For we are the people who cheer the boys in blue

 

Hello, Hello, we are the Rangers boys

Hello, Hello, you�ll know us by our noise

We follow Glasgow Rangers our hearts are strong and true

For we are the people who cheer the boys in blue

 

 

The second statement from your letter that I�d like to discuss is as follows:

 

ââ?¬Å?I do not believe that the Club has anything further which it is required to do in regard to notification of supporters in respect of the new SPL regulationsââ?¬Â.

 

Yes, there is no disputing that the Club has met its obligations under the SPL Regulations regarding the issuing of statements in programmes etc. but in reality, the statements only tell the supporters what the regulations are, they donââ?¬â?¢t tell the supporters what the Club deems to be unacceptable. Overall the club is viewed by the supporters to be adopting a ââ?¬Ë?head in the sandââ?¬â?¢ attitude, hoping it will all go away. Ignoring the problem is not going to solve it, education of the supporters is the only way forward.ââ?¬Â

 

 

 

After receiving my 2nd letter, Kenny Scott requested that I arrange a suitable time for myself to attend Ibrox and have a discussion with him. I sought legal advice as to how I should correctly go about things from here on in and the advice given was that I should continue correspondence in written form only as a means of maintaining an auditable trail of information passed between parties. Therefore I wrote to Kenny Scott explaining that after seeking legal advice, I could not attend any meeting. He further replied that ââ?¬Å?As I had taken legal advice he could no longer continue correspondence with me.ââ?¬Â

[maineflyer 0]

Post Number Three

 

 

Moving on, as Rangers were inferring that it was not their responsibility to determine which songs are unacceptable or not, I again contacted the SFA to get their stance on it.

 

After a 6 month delay and me resending the original letter (everything I send is recorded delivery, so I know they received the first one), I finally got a reply. It was no surprise to me that they completely avoided the question with regards to TBB, and only commented on the issue with (We are the people).

 

 

Their response was as follows.

 

“It is not our policy to look at individual songs and say whether or not they fall within the new ‘Unacceptable Conduct’ rules as clearly there are songs which may be unacceptable to some and not to others, and others that can simply have words added making them fall into the category. Supporters in any doubt as to what is and what is not allowed should ask their club for advice. These rules were introduced to allow match officials, the police and the club the opportunity to report behaviour including offensive singing to the appropriate authorities including the SPL and SFL. However, importantly, the clubs themselves are responsible and accountable for the prevention of such behaviour and sanctions can be applied by an independent commission.

 

Disorderly conduct includes, conduct which stirs up or sustains hatred or ill will against or towards a group of persons based on membership of a religious group, or of a social cultural group, with a perceived religious affiliation. If a report is made from an official who believes the conduct falls within this then further investigation would be made.

 

What is acceptable can be subjective and until such times as case law exists, supporters should consider if they infringe the above and act appropriately.

 

While I understand this does not answer your specific question on ‘We are the people’, may I suggest that you seek further clarification from Rangers FC if you are still unsure?”

 

 

Let’s analyse the SFA’s response then…..

 

“It is not our policy to look at individual songs and say whether or not they fall within the new ‘Unacceptable Conduct’ rules as clearly there are songs which may be unacceptable to some and not to others, and others that can simply have words added making them fall into the category.”

 

But surely it is the policy of the SFA as they are going to be publishing a list of ‘Banned Songs’? Or could it be that no such list will ever exist and it is just more bullsh*t that someone is hoping supporters around the country will blindly believe?

 

“Supporters in any doubt as to what is and what is not allowed should ask their club for advice.”

 

“However, importantly, the clubs themselves are responsible and accountable for the prevention of such behaviour and sanctions can be applied by an independent commission.”

 

“While I understand this does not answer your specific question on ‘We are the people’, may I suggest that you seek further clarification from Rangers FC if you are still unsure?”

 

Three separate statements that infer that the responsibility is with the Club for determining which songs are banned and which are not. Again this suggests that the SFA have no intention of publishing any ‘Banned Songs’ list. More importantly, why are Rangers continually trying to shirk responsibility here?

 

“Disorderly conduct includes, conduct which stirs up or sustains hatred or ill will against or towards a group of persons based on membership of a religious group, or of a social cultural group, with a perceived religious affiliation. If a report is made from an official who believes the conduct falls within this then further investigation would be made.”

 

Another statement that opens up a whole new can of worms! At which point do the offended become the offenders?

 

For my own part, I remain convinced that the whole "banning" of TBB was almost entirely contrived and as much to do with establishing personal credentials as compliance with any directives that held consequences for Rangers. This was a bandwagon that careered downhill out of control and was eventually hijacked by opportunists who we chose not to challenge. If we want to start mending fences around here, sooner or later we are going to have to deal with issues like this. For clarity the asterisks above refer of course to the apparently taboo word "feenyan"

Edited February 3, 2009 by maineflyer

[Zappa 0]

We are the people

 

We are the people who sing of victory

We speak of football glories from Kilmarnock to Dundee

We follow Glasgow Rangers our hearts are strong and true

For we are the people who cheer the boys in blue

 

Hello, Hello, we are the Rangers boys

Hello, Hello, you�ll know us by our noise

We follow Glasgow Rangers our hearts are strong and true

For we are the people who cheer the boys in blue

 

We�ll be there at Ibrox when Rangers take the field

They�ll follow onto triumph as we know they�ll never lose

And 60,000 voices will cheer the whole game through

For we are the people who cheer the boys in blue

 

Hello, Hello, we are the Rangers boys

Hello, Hello, you�ll know us by our noise

We follow Glasgow Rangers our hearts are strong and true

For we are the people who cheer the boys in blue

 

 

We need clarification on this without a doubt, because without clarification there's no way this can safely be sung atm without risking measures being taken against the club (no matter how insane it may seem).

 

There's also the glaringly obvious problem that even if we were allowed to sing those original words, large sections of the support are likely to drift into singing the supposedly taboo versions of the song/chant. Maybe not immediately, but it would undoubtedly happen, the ramifications of which could unfortunately be very serious.

[maineflyer 0]

Although you obviously miss the point our friend is making, I think you have unintentionally stumbled on the core issue here. Perhaps you could close the loop and state exactly what ramifications are you referring to and why you assume they would be serious for Rangers.

[Zappa 0]

Well, UEFA, the SFA & SPL are all 'apparently' taking the matter very seriously, so no matter how twisted the whole situation is, the ramifications could actually be beyond a fine the next time. We're talking about possible points deductions, stand closures & potentially having to play European games behind closed doors. With sufficient evidence & level of complaint, then one or more of those governing bodies may well hit Rangers with one of those harsh penalties, no matter whether WE deem it as just or not. Is it fair? No, it's not.

 

FWIW, I do indeed know what the poster of this content had in mind. We're being forced to stop singing things which for all intents & purposes we're entitled to continue singing, but lets not be too naive about this. A Scottish court prosecuted a Rangers fan for singing the famine song when there was essentially no official law in place to say that it was illegal & I've got no doubt that RFC would be prosecuted for the support resurrecting TBB.

 

Obviously, the club deserve some stick for not challenging these issues further than they have, but I personally think that they're being politically out-manoeuvred on these issues & don't have too much say in the matter.

[Gribz 743]

Cracking post and ive only read part 1 as Im at work but will come back to the the rest later.

 

Cant agree more!!! Ive said all along how can they justify banning the 'TUNE' at 1 stadium and not others. Its pure discrimation against us.

 

They MAY have an arguement regarding the words but if we were to change it back to the original tune then I cant see how someone can get arrested. - Yet this is a prime example of powers who be abusing there power and having control over people. It takes a situation that effects 'you' to realise that this happens in all walks of life - none more so in my political views that ive made clear on here many a time.

 

What people dont seem to understand is when there is a chance to fight for something that is right then the power is in numbers. If 50,000 rangers fans started singing the song with Rangers words then 1) how can 50,000 get arrested and 2) on what grounds would the charges be?

But the mentality in the UK is to always "leave it to the next man" to do the protesting, yet the media then portray protestors out to be mad but people forget that they have to do something rational to get there voice heard - ie climb up on top of the houses of parliament.

 

Im all for bringing back this song and using Rangers words. This song is a symbol of the Rangers support. There is nothing better than a full blast of Hullo Hullo....it always gives me goosebumps.

 

EDIT: I just wonder how much that clown David Taylor has on this in his high up role in UEFA.

[pete 2,499]

Surely There are minutes of the UEFA meeting that banned the song although that was a bit of a shambles as well. I agree i think UEFA can't ban a tune and that Rangers called for the tune to be banned for the reason Shroomz hit on, namely many will still sing the old version. The whole thing is a grey area. What is the Police charge? As the word Fen1an has been adjudged racist then they will put it in the same corner as DOB and the charge would be racially aggravated breach of the peace. Whether the European courts would see it that way may be worth someone putting it to the proof. As for a song with the same tune without any dubious words then i do not think anyone can penalise anyone for singing it.

[Frankie 8,150]

1. I think that it is obvious that anyone who sings a song with the word fen!an leaves themselves open to arrest. As such, rightly or wrongly, I'd certainly suggest no-one uses that word in any new version of TBB.

 

2. As discussed several months ago, I too have tried to find out more about the alleged banning. I've had no reply from UEFA as I feel they are the only party worth contacting here. Rangers, the SFA and the SPL will only use doublespeak and will commit to nothing.

 

3. As we've seen by the singing of the 'Kaka, Kaka' and 'Edu, Edu' songs, the tune is clearly not banned. Neither the SPL not the club have highlighted these inoffensive plays on TBB. Ergo, one can only assume a new version of TBB (sans fen!an) would also be acceptable.

 

4. The only evident problem with any new version is that some fans WILL persist in using the offensive lyrics. How we combat that inevitability is the challenge here. I don't see Rangers helping. I don't see the fan groups helping. Only a few websites would promote it. How would the message get out? How would the new words get out?

 

Flyer drops and RSC contacts would possibly be your best bet. As would a direct public challenge at the club AGM later this year. Or some sort of protest which would maybe garner publicity.

 

[Zappa 0]

Frankie, I think an important factor to consider is that it's not the people singing supposedly 'sectarian' lyrics to the song/s that got us in this trouble in the first place, it's the people complaining about it & we all know who they are. They're the people that are not only just waiting for a chance to f*ck us over, but actively partaking in seeing that it happens. Whether or not you agree that the lyrics are sectarian, the fact remains that they were being sung for years and years & now all of a sudden there's a religeopolitical agenda to pull Rangers fans up for something that as UEFA said, is a problem in Scottish society (and not ONLY Scottish society FWIW).

Edited February 4, 2009 by Zappa