craig

Can we please refrain from the personal insults ? To say someone is pish is fine as it is an opinion on how much of a player they are - but name-calling and personal insults are not necessary.

Why not, half the team is being played out of position anyway :devil: But therein lies part of the problem. We have Bougherra at CB and talking about playing him at CM whilst we have a player who seems to be similar in Edu who cost us 2.5 million and cant get anywhere near a game. We have Davis, a natural CM playing RM and then in the back 4 we have 4 CB's where only 2 should be. At any point in time this year we have seen 4 or 5 players out of position. I know we all say that bringing WS back was a longer-term project (Gribz suggests 3 phases - steady ship, challenge for title and win title) and if that were the case then WS should have been strengthening obvious weaknesses in the TEAM first and then the squad secondarily. Surely it would make sense to say "right, we lack a quality RB, LB, LM and RM" and then target those positions. See who is available for the budget we have and then obtain one, two or three said players after having looked at the rest of the squad and determined which position was weakest and targeted it first. Instead of doing that, WS has spunked a ton of money on players who either dont get a game or dont get played in their natural position. Look at the players we signed in the last transfer window : Bougherra - a success. Mendes - somewhat a success but blows hot and cold at times. Miller - fans either love or loathe - personally I think he has done well. Lafferty - out of position and looking AWFUL. Edu - Who ? Davis - out of position but still doing OK. More consistency needed Velicka - read Edu comments Aaron - Edu comments Now, when you look at it the money we received for Cuellar went on his replacement (Bougherra) and Mendes. IIRC we had signed Miller, Velicka, Edu and Lafferty prior to selling Cuellar. So in effect WS seemed to think that the strikeforce needed strengthening first (which I would completely disagree with and it could be argued that it was the strongest part of our team - we had Boyd, JCD, Cousin, Novo). On top of that, not only did he strengthen a part of the team that, on face value, needed least work, he left us with a creaking 38 yr old as our 1st choice CB (Weir has done a very good job for us but last a season ? I doubt it). And to exacerbate the problem, those players initially signed cost us 6 million pounds which most definitely could have been spent elsewhere and more appropriately. Velicka - cost 1 million, hardly gets a game Miller - cost 2 million, gets a game and does a job Edu - 2.5 million, NEVER gets a game Lafferty - 3.5 million, gets a game and looks completely out of his depth at LM. Davis - 3 million, gets a game and does a decent job - still out of position though. Was Velicka needed ? With all the strikers we had I don't think so. Was Lafferty needed ? Well, he was bought as a striker, but one without a great club scoring record, again I dont think so. Was Edu needed ? Maybe but at 2.5 million when completely untested ? We had Thomson, Hemdani, BF to come back from injury so maybe we didnt need him - this one is trickier to judge though as Mendes arrived after him. That said, given we had Thomson and Hemdani, did we really need another holding midfielder ? Doubt it. Was Miller needed ? Again, whilst I think he has performed well for us I dont think he was needed - we have Novo who can do the same job and he was already on the books. WS wasted 8 million in the pre-season transfer window IMO. Sure, we got about 8 mill for Cuellar but he still spent that 8 mill and has had very little return for 6 mill of it. Bougherra cost 2.5 - how nice would it have been to get a similar player for 2.5, then maybe 1.5 on a natural RB, 2 mill on a natural LM and the other 1.5 on whomever you feel like (LB, RM, ST or 3 squad players). We signed : 1CB to replace Cuellar (which leaves us with Weir at the end of his career as 1st choice for a 38 game season.....), 3CM's (whilst we already had Thomson, Ferguson, Hemdani - so 6 CM's for 2 spots - the mathematics of that makes little sense to me) 1LM on loan (who cant get a game even given everyone else tried at LM has been poor at best) and 3 strikers (when we already had Boyd, JCD, Cousin, Novo) - leaving us 7 strikers for 2 spots. Now, I know I am probably being simplistic in this analysis but I am not sure that blowing the VAST majority of your budget to give you SIX options for 2 positions and SEVEN options for 2 positions is appropriate. Find players you want in the positions needed and go after them, dont try to fit a ball into a square hole !!! Sorry, this is all a bit of rambling and possibly should be a separate thread but it doesn't look to me like WS really had any kind of strategy at all in his pre-season signings.

Nah, I think these things are worthwhile and I dont see how they break forum rules at all. They are petitions with an attempt to at least garner parity in how we are treated, I cant see that being an issue on this forum !

No problem in posting them MF.

His second goal was a similar chance to the one that Boyd had on Saturday......

But there is absolutely no reason why one of those youngsters shouldn't get a chance when NO-ONE has played well at LM this season calscot (perhaps Novo aside). Lafferty has been shocking when played there. Beasley has looked every bit as bad. Charlie Adam has been woeful too. It isn't a case, for me at least, of simply throwing young guys in for the sake of it. For me it is a case that given no-one has stamped their authority on that particular position then what do we have to lose by giving one of the youngsters a shot at it ? Playing with Lafferty or Adam or Beasley has meant we are effectively playing with 10 players anyway, so why not give a precocious teenager a go at making the position their own ?

You make a great point MF. When WS first came back the energy and the passion he showed was glaringly obvious - but the last few months and he seems to have just given up.

With Arsenal and Everton and even Man U to a lesser extent - the main thing is that those players were brought in to play alongside experienced pros who could help them through the game with their leadership qualities. Plus, with Fabregas, Walcott, Rooney etc - it is fine to bring these players in if there are only one or two of them in the starting 11. If you bring in a whole team of youngsters you likely wont win the league but there is absolutely no harm in bringing one or two youngsters into a team, especially when the league is swiftly slipping away !

Fair point Jon. I think I will just bow out of this thread. To be castigating Boyd when there are players and management team far more culpable is playing to an agenda IMO. But I am not really into beating my head against a brickwall so wont "contribute" to this thread any further.

I wouldnt take McCoist right now. We cant be taking a managerial risk.

WS isnt into "taking chances". We have a raw, fresh talent in Aaron and WS brings on Lafferty who has proven time and time again that he is no left midfielder. WS needs to go - I wasnt of that opinion recently but now I most definitely am. If a player is good enough then he is old enough. I am all for blooding young talent in but by bringing on Lafferty who is SHIT at LM then WS proved he doesnt do "adventure"

The lying down comment was because you were so irate yesterday. Valid point IMO. WHat is valid about your "anorak" comment ? Nothing. So what ? So you are telling me Sebo had a role to play, as a striker, that included not being an attacking threat WHATSOEVER ? Makes little sense to me. How do you know that this was the role he was given ? You part of the team talk were you ? No. I cannot fathom ANY manager sending out a team and telling their striker to not be an attacking threat but to just noise up the opposing CB's (well.... maybe Jim Leishman...). Boyd at least got into the position to have an ATTEMPT at goal - something your poster boy didnt do in 90 mins. Correct, no-one can be right - but Sebo's "previous" would suggest that rather than scoring he probably would have put it in row z - he couldnt hit a coo in the arse with a banjo, and he proved it. Funny. So now it is "fuckin Hamilton etc" - 4 or 5 weeks ago it was "the better teams" - as ascender pointed out to you yesterday, Boyd has scored against all of the top 6 with the exception of Celtic - but then he has only had one game against them this season. One game and you bring the knives out. Hardly fair, is it ? So you believe that we are "where we are" because of Kris Boyd ? No blame for McGregor ? None for BF, Mendes and everyone else that is under-performing ? It is a TEAM game and whether you like it or not Kris Boyd is one of the few who in the last couple of months has IMPROVED his game. Doesn't make a difference if he ISNT ISNT ISNT the worst scapegoat, it doesnt escape the fact that you make him a scapegoat - and I dont think that it is too much of a reach to suggest you were almost waiting for it to happen. Oh so now Mendes has teh toughest role - so he gets some slack because of that. I didnt think that being a goalscorer was an easy task either, must be wrong though eh ? If Mendes was the great player you say he is (and he is a very good player) then he would dictate games a whole lot more than he does. He has been SHIT for months now with the odd decent game thrown in - yet he escapes criticism. He may be the best player talentwise in our team this season but our best performer he is not. Sure, scored a great goal against them and his 1st 3 or 4 games looked fantastic - but has done very little since IMO. We dont have Cuellar or Hutton though and Thomson is injured - wishful thinking wont get us top of the league. This is the club we have become Gribz, a selling club. And that is why whether you like Boyd or not that the worries begin. Who would come in and score more goals than Boyd from the bargain basement ? WS has spent a boatload of money in the last 18 months and I cant see much more being available anytime soon. Do I think Boyd is a great striker ? Far from it, but he is the best we have in terms of goals and given we have a midfield that rarely pops up with goals then we will struggle without his goals. So you are saying that Boyd didn't drop deep or lay passes off ? I remember at least a couple of times when he did exactly that. Dont let that get in the way of your argument though. But why would you play Prso in midfield ? Are you saying Boyd should be played in midfield ? I am confused at that statement. We NEED a goalscoring midfielder but dont have one (only Davis has popped up with goals). I don't see anyone arguing with you that Prso would do a better job than Boyd, but Prso wasnt a prolific scorer either. I think that is a bit of a childish comment about mind-reading. Anyone reading this forum can see that you are very anti-Boyd. Your choice but that statement doesnt bring anything to the debate. So just how many times are you going to move the goalposts on what Boyd has to do ? He did it against Hamilton and it was "has to do it against the better teams". He then did it against said better teams and it changed to "has to do it over a season" - so how many times will you move the goalposts ? He has played once against Celtic and you are proved right ? Not for me you havent Gribz - one game isnt enough to judge someone. Why not take the Celtic game along with the last 7 or 8 games where he has scored a shitload. That would give you enough games to judge someone - or at least the empirical evidence would be better than one single, solitary game. Sure he wasnt great yesterday but then who in our team was ? I cant see Jon having said that he would have Boyd before Henry, that is ridiculous - if you did Jon, you are a fool :devil: Sure, Boyd hasnt been in a league winning side so yes you are stating facts. Bit here is another one for you - Boyd has been our top scorer every season since coming here. So..... he is at least doing HIS bit to help us secure a league win. He has scored a ton of goals for us, which he is paid to do. So is it just his fault, given all the goals he has scored, that we havent won the league ? Or are the management team, defence, midfield not also culpable ? Was it Boyd that gave away a 93rd minute goal to the Tims at Parkhead last season to hand them a win which galvanised them into going on a run to win the league ? No, I don't believe in these shite players Gribz. I could go through the whole team and pick it apart. I wouldn't have Broadfoot at CB, I wouldnt have Weir at CB, I wouldnt have Whittaker at RB (I would never have signed him as when I saw him at Hibs his positional sense for a full back was terrible), I wouldnt have Adam near the squad let alone team, I would either not have bought Davis or I would play him CM - another WS masterstroke in buying a CM and sticking him wide right out of position ! Boyd ? I would love a better class of striker than Boyd but the fact remains he is our only really potent goal threat.

What is with the "anorak" comment ? You have a go at Jon for not debating the points and make a completely irrelevant comment. Let me see.... YOU were the one who used Sebo as a comparison - and then you say he had a different role to play, thereby effectively retracting the comparison of the two. You want an answer ? NO, I don't think Sebo would have scored it because he is SHITE - a far worse player than Boyd, of that there is no doubt. Then your large font, bold quote from ascender - well, Boyd is certainly a part of the reason we havent won the title since 2005 but he isnt the main culprit, regardless of what you think. He has contributed an enormous amount of goals to this team whilst no-one else looks like contributing goals consistently. But all you want is a scapegoat and Boyd is that man - lets forget the fact he has been one of our best players over the last couple of months - one game today and the knives are out - how short-term can you get ? Mendes is "class" yet had been pish for 2 months after the last OF game and got ZERO abuse from you. Then, as for your Wallace, Dodds, Negri, Prso, Novo etc etc etc comment. Sure they all contributed goals but each of those players had better quality support from their midfield for the most part. Boyd can only work on the service he gets and our team has been pish for a long time yet Boyd is still the only one banging in goals. Would Novo chip in with 25 goals this season ? Doubtful. Prso ? Probably not. By the way, you are actually MORE anti-Boyd than Jon is pro-Boyd.

Did I back Adam in the other thread ? Dont think so.

Really ? I thought Boyd had a chance to score a goal today, which would be more chances than Sebo had in his "wonderful" OF performance. You should go lie down Gribz, your head must be hurting :fish:

Where did I disagree in the other thread ? Point it out to me. Either you or I are confused. Hopefully not me :devil:

And we scraped a draw. Wonderful. And Sebo scored how many goals in all his time here ? Not trying to get into a Sebo v Boyd debate. But Boyd has done far better over a period of time than Sebo did. That Sebo performance was of headless chicken variety and provided ZERO attacking threat.

Boyd got himself into that position. What did Miller do with his half chance ? Ballooned it miles high and miles wide. Didnt realise that a striker should score with every chance he gets now. Does Miller sit on the shoulder ? My point was the service was SHITE yet you would prefer to make that Boyd's fault. Just what would Hemdani do ?? I dont recall him being such a fantastic player for us (sure, he scored a great goal against them) but what has he done aside from that ? And bring him in for who ? Ferguson ? You would have started Hemdani before Ferguson today ? That would have been CRAZY - see, because BEFORE the game BF was the obvious choice - with hindsight and that he was shite, sure Hemdani might have done more - but that is with HINDSIGHT.

Thought exactly the same thing right after the final whistle. Get Aaron and Fleck in now. The league is almost gone so now is the time to give these kids playing time.

Miller got a sniff at what ? Boyd had our best chance today - he constantly played on the shoulder of the two CB's and if we had someone to play a slide-rule pass then he would have had more than one chance. Mendes does have class - but he was very ineffective today. Didnt do enough and didnt dictate as he should. BF was awful and rarely got on the ball. I do think we badly miss KT. Hemdani though ? Nah, not for me.

Just because you mention Whittaker, Broadfoot et al in the same sentence doesnt deflect from the fact you ARE making Boyd a scapegoat. He is ONE of a number in your eyes. How many games has he had in Europe to prove it Gribz ? Never played in Europe this year and didnt get many games last year either...... and he hadnt played in the last 5 Celtic games either. So just how does a player prove themselves if not given game time (funny that..... reminds me of a certain SEBO that you wanted to get game time to give him a chance - surely Boyd also deserves game time against these teams to prove himself ?). One game doesnt mean he cant do it. I am not pro-Boyd but certainly not anti-Boyd either. Boyd probably was more effective than Miller today (which doesnt say much for either) yet Miller escapes your criticism because of his "100% effort". Makes little sense. Anyway, this has deteriorated into yet another Boyd thread. There were far bigger culprits out there today. We dominated the 1st half but did NOTHING with it creatively - and most creativity comes from midfield - we have little of it in our midfield. 2nd half they probably edged it but only because we had to press for the game. They were every bit as poor as we were.

Boyd wasnt the biggest offender. He needs service. How many chances did we really create today ? ONE. Sure Boyd missed it but it was a decent save from Boruc. BF and Mendes had ZERO creativity between them. Davis didnt get past the defender and Adam was a waste. I am still trying to work out why the hell WS brought on Lafferty at LM when he has proven time and time again that he cant cut it at that position. Celtic were pish too - neither team is decent and neither team did enough to win the game.

So Boyd should only concentrate on scoring against Celtic ? :yawn: You said he needed to do it against the better teams - he HAS. Simple. He has played once against Celtic and not scored and you revert to type and make Boyd a scapegoat.

Papac did his job today so how can it NOT be pass marks. He isnt expected to get to the byeline like Numan and Robertson - gone are the days when we can spend 5 million on a quality LB unfortunately. Plus, things could have been a lot worse if he HAD tried to get down the flank because Adam doesnt have the pace to cover him. Davis floated in and out of the game but I didnt think he was that bad. What did infuriate me was the number of times our midfielders went backwards.

No point arguing about Boyd with Gribz - he has been waiting for the opportunity to have a go at Boyd since the lad started playing well. Seems that whilst someone like Mendes can be pish for 6 weeks Boyd only gets one game. Makes little sense to me. Sure, Boyd didnt have his best game but to cast him out for ONE poor game is a poor show.