maineflyer

Named - not blamed. The statement? Which statement? A UEFA statement, an Assembly statement or a club statement?

I've got no problem with your comfort, only the basis for it. See my previous post.

That's just you making the connection again. Stick to the facts. And if Rangers then claimed UEFA banned the song (as the club have) then surely they are 'blaming' UEFA as opposed to saying UEFA find it acceptable but we don't so we're banning it. No, they are not blaming UEFA in anything I've seen, so I wouldn't use unnecessarily emotive language like that. They are not even simply saying that the ban came from UEFA - they got the Assembly to do that.

Well if this mysterious, unseen directive actually exists and actually came from UEFA - where is it? Why do you choose to form an opinion based upon something that no one has seen, that no one can quote from, that no one can produce, that has never been made public by the club and (unlike every other UEFA directive) was never published by UEFA. I've heard of a leap of faith but that's ridiculous. Best just to stick to the facts.

Come on Frankie, stick to the facts. The first UEFA directive did indeed mention TBB but not only avoided banning it but even alluded to the fact that it had been sung in Scotland for years and there was a circumstantial basis for assuming ths Scottish authorities "tolerated" it. Mentioning wasn't banning it - they didn't even suggest it should be banned. The actual words are there for anyone to read. And I'm not aware Rangers ever "blamed" UEFA for any ban. Where do you take that from?

No it doesn't. It contains a statement by the Assembly saying that UEFA banned TBB. You gotta stop adding two and two and coming up with five.

Yippee:spl:

Aaaaaaaaarrrgghhhhh

Spliff, What I've said and what is absolutely indisputable is that the statements made public by UEFA on their website definitely did NOT ban TBB. That much is clear. If UEFA made any other statements or directives then I don't know about them and they did not make them public. Since UEFA's own rules mean they must publish their disciplinary decisions, I think it's conclusive that they didn't ban TBB. However, if you prefer, I'm prepared to put it another way ......... it is a fact that there is no evidence that UEFA banned TBB. However, that said, I'm in despair at having to repeat the same thing again and again and, since I can't seem to resist the challenge each time I'm wound up, I think I need to capitulate and take an entirely new stance on this matter. Therefore, from now on I'm a complete convert to the idea that UEFA actually did specifically ban TBB and I'm convinced the evidence must be there if only I had the wit to see it. The club were only complying with UEFA's direct instruction to them and took reasonable action by advising the entire Rangers support that TBB had been banned by UEFA and the club would suffer outrageous penalties if this wasn't complied with. The Assembly only reported the actions already undertaken by the club. The club always communicates openly, directly and with complete honesty. I have undying faith that he club has never spun the facts in order to create a convenient perspective on the truth. I'm a born again Murrayite and I hope he returns to the boardroom soon. yours in abject defeat and acute repetitive stress syndrome, Maineflyer;)

Here we go again.......... I'm sure you're just winding me up. You keep quoting links and tying them together but you never respond to the point at hand. I'm asking you one simple question here - show me one UEFA directive that bans TBB. If you can't them just say so instead of heading off at some tangent. Here's another I keep asking but you won't answer - show me one instruction by the club to the support that bans TBB. Similarly, if you can't them just say so. Let's keep it straight and avoid playing with words. The club isn't the Assembly and the Assembly isn't the club. You also know that the club often communicates its message to the wider support without writing to individual ST holders so why the diversion? As for the Wee Blue Book - I've said again and again that this makes absolutely no mention of TBB at all, not once, never - so again, why the diversion?. It isn't a matter of who the club felt they could or couldn't trust, it's a basic matter of record that the club has never issued a statement specifically banning TBB. PLEASE - if you can show otherwise then do so - if not then do the decent thing and concede I'm right. It's one thing or the other, they either have or they haven't. You're right, you don't have evidence. Neither do I. I'm not being defensive, only accurate. By "the same way" do you mean on the Assembly website? No, you're wrong again. We would have read about it on the UEFA website, the same as all previous directives, including those that did not ban TBB. If you'd stop making assumptions then there wouldn't be any mis-judgement. You infer what you want, I'm simply distancing myself from you're assumptions. QUOTE]7. If UEFA said the song was to be banned (and I don't see you providing a single shred of evidence to say it isn't), then I'm unsure what recourse the club had other than to pass on the directive and ensure we weren't punished further. I've already said they couldn't appeal the UEFA appeal and outwith general indignation about the imbalance of their actions, there was not much else they could so IMHO. Given their initial successful defence of the song I doubt they'd suddenly go full circle and ban it themselves.How can I possibly provide you with evidence of something that didn't happen? The only possible recource is to show you that what DID happen never included banning TBB. But please, for the sake of my ebbing sanity, show me one solitary UEFA directive that specifically bans TBB - please, it's not complicated - just copy and paste and everyone will see either what I see or what you see. We're not at odds, I wouldn't let that happen. But our understanding of what happened is very much at odds. I'm trying to look at the facts as they exist, without prejudice and without drawing inferences or assumptions. I think perhaps you misunderstand what conclusion I'm trying to draw from all this. It isn't that UEFA somehow didn't want TBB banned and it isn't that the club didn't want it banned - they both undoubtedly never wanted it sung again. Neither am I campaigning to have it return on the basis it was never banned. I'm simply irritated that the club cannot communicate its wishes to the support without some kind of cloak and dagger bollocks. If the club wanted TBB banned (and it did/does) they should have said so openly in the Wee Blue Book, on their website, the matchday programme or in any one of many other ways available to them. I can't understand the coy stupidity of the club somehow not wanting to be seen or heard referrring directly to TBB by name - as if to name it somehow conceded that the problem actually existed. Why deal with it by the back door? The fact this concerns TBB isn't important, this is about how the club chooses to communicate with the support. It's about how the club under Murray has shouted good news but been embarrassed and inept at dealing with difficult issues. The point is relevant and I decided to raise it in this thread because STS depends ultimately on the club being willing to engage in open, honest, meaningful and constructive dialogue with the project's authors. If the club isn't willing to engage with the support in a new and positive partnership then STS is already dead in the water - and no one wants that. However, unless we can recognise and acknowledge the strategies that have typified Murray's tenure, how can we ever have confidence in our prospects for change in the future.

I agree with the spirit of what you say here and, in case this is being misunderstood, I have never once accused the club or anyone else of fraudulently falsifying anything. Those are not my words and I wouldn't like anyone to think they were.

Show me - quote your source where UEFA specifically instruct the club to ban TBB. Show me an example of the club specifically instructing fans in writing not to sing TBB. I'm not a ST holder and I could have missed it but I've never seen anything on the big screens other than the generic "don't act in a sectarian manner". Do you have any evidence or can anyone confirm that the club ever stated on the big screens that specifically TBB should not be sung? Which is what I've said all along - although, for the record, I've made no comment whatsoever about the Assembly. Again, this is something you alone are introducing into the debate That's your assumption and it may be a very fair one - but we both know you haven't a single shred of evidence to support it. With respect, I've never once accused the club of fraudulently falsifying anything. Those were words introduced by you alone. What I have done is call into question the decision by the club not to relay the UEFA directive directly and verbatim to the fans. I believe, and there seems ample evidence for it, that the club chose to spin the UEFA directive in order to achieve what the club wanted, ie, removing TBB song immediately and for good. I'm not saying that the club and UEFA necessarily had opposing objectives or even had significantly different objectives. But the club chose not to argue the case for removal of TBB and instead waved the UEFA flag to avoid having to do so. Where is it exactly that you think I'm going wrong here? EDIT..... If you're going to challenge this again, please try to restrict your comments to what I've actually written, rather than what you assume might be between my lines. That way I might be able to leave this alone for a while. I appreciate my conclusions might be a bit uncomfortable for some but I'm only interpreting the evidence as I see it - if there is other evidence I'm not aware of then I'm very open to taking that into account and, if appropriate, altering my interpretation. However, you've worn me down on this issue and I don't think I can bring myself to repeat the same thing over again - on that basis I willingly withdraw from the debate.

I'd rather see KT fit and well and playing for Rangers than risking injury in some forlorn attempt to rescue Peat, Burley and the Tartan Army from the humiliation they all so richly deserve.

It's not really a matter of debate Frankie. 1. The UEFA directive did not instruct the club to ban TBB - that is a simple matter of fact. 2. The club have at no time issued any directive to me not to sing TBB. Unless I'm being granted unique dispensation, this applies to all other fans as well. 3. The only instruction not to sing TBB came from a fans organisation (the Assembly), who took that instruction not from UEFA but from the club alone. If you can see an error in the above, please let me know.

Frankie, it can hardly be described as a conspiracy theory - merely a conclusion reached after examining the evidence and discounting convenient assumptions on either side.

The difference with the Lafferty suspension is that it didn't result in the club banning players from cinemas because it exposed them to acting. Likewise, the UEFA letter about the bus window being smashed didn't see the club ban fans from travelling to matches in buses. I couldn't care if the club publish or don't publish UEFA's letters, or letters from anyone else for that matter ..... only that they don't use UEFA punishments to concoct something else and then claim it was UEFA all along. This isn't about finding an excuse to criticise the club. For years now I've listened to the media and our own fans tell me that UEFA banned The Billy Boys and that's the reason why it cannot again be sung. That is fundamentally untrue. There would undoubtedly be all sorts of problems if we did sing that song again but that has nothing whatsoever to do with any point I've been making. I'm sorry if this is hard to follow but I think I've been entirely consistent throughout.

Simultaneously a thing of beauty and humiliation.:devil:

You're playing with words - I just wanted it made clear these were your words, not mine. If you think they cover the situation, who am I to argue. Generally, I prefer to select my own words. Undeniably correct. The certainly mentioned TBB but they neither banned it nor did they ask for it to be banned. Yes but the "directives" announced to the fans were not the UEFA directives - they were the club's own directives - which were never specified by the club, only by the supporters groups. Nothing issued by the club has ever mentioned TBB as far as I can see. That's a value judgement for everyone to make for themselves. I've never questioned appropriateness. I don't know why you continue to re-state what has never been in dispute. The issue here is not what we can all see actually happened, but that the club used supporters groups to state that the banning of this specific song had been made by UEFA - when it was plainly banned by the club and not UEFA at all. That very much depend on whether you're talking about the actual facts or about what you have taken to be a reasonable asumption based upon the facts. "I believe...." I'm sure it will be interesting and may change some assumptions - but I somehow doubt if it will change any of the facts since these are already established - even if some of the more obstinate amongst us continue to refuse to acknowledge them.

This just gets stranger and stranger. Perhaps it's me. You say the chairman quoted the UEFA directive in the Wee Blue Book, which is correct. But not once does it quote any UEFA directive that mentions TBB. Nor does the Wee Blue Book make even one mention of TBB. You mention a joint club/supporter statement, which is actually an Assembly statement that alludes to the club's position on this matter - it is not a club statement and as such only further reinforces my central point. You then quote from the Daily Record which, if you'll forgive me, I wouldn't wipe my arse with and don't think adds anything credible to the debate. The club making tannoy announcements about TBB certainly doesn't show that UEFA banned the song. All it shows is the club enacting its own ban. UEFA fined the club for the reasons given in the UEFA statements, none of which ever said that any fine was imposed due to TBB having been sung. That is a fact and is there for anyone to read and confirm. You again mention that the Assembly statement says UEFA banned TBB. Which is what I have said all along - that the supporter groups reported the club's statement to them that UEFA had banned TBB - the Assembly could not and did not report any statement from UEFA that TBB was banned. Just because the Assembly reported that UEFA had banned TBB, I'm afraid that isn't the same as UEFA actually banning the song. The Assembly simply did the club's bidding and reported what the club had told them. The only specific connection between the UEFA sanctions and the banning of TBB came from the Assembly and sundry other supporter groups, who took their information from the club alone. You say that Rangers, the media and UEFA all mentioned TBB in their various statements, which is true. You then say that you only "believe" that UEFA banned the song - and the reason you only believe this is that there isn't one shred of evidence you can hold up to show that they did. You know it and I know it, that the connection is circumstantial and holds up only because it suited the club's agenda to make that connection - and too many supporters have accepted the club's spin. You may not believe the club fraudulently fasified UEFA directives (your words). I might disagree, although whether or not I would use such emotive language is another thing. You may also choose to believe the outcome was inevitable in any case. At no time have I ever attempted to argue otherwise. As I've said many times, that's irrelevant to the point I'm making. It's clear there is nothing new that is going to prove UEFA specifically banned TBB. Not from the Assembly, not from the club and certainly not from UEFA. I've said my piece on this and it's up to everyone to do their own research and judge the facts for themselves. My own position is unchanged.

Burley deserves to go and probably should never have been chosen for the job in the first place. But it's typically squalid the way the likes of George Peat are queuing up to twist the knife and ensure no blame accrues to them. My left nut and a couple of decent sheepdogs could do a better job than the SFA's army of slimebags.

Yes - I didn't explain myself properly. I really meant to make the point that while the club made the claim about UEFA, it wasn't willing to do so in public - but chose instead to communicate at arms length through surrogate supporters groups, allowing them to draw the "right" conclusions and pass these on. Which link is that - which post number? There is nothing in the quoted text in your last post to indicate that anyone other than the club made the link to TBB. (which I realise is the point you are making here) This isn't complicated. Either UEFA wrote the directive and specifically quoted TBB song, or they didn't. If they didn't (and there is no evidence that they did) then the club must have done so itself. If the club made the specific link to TBB then why have they spent the last two years trying to have everyone believe that UEFA did it? I'm not really interested in whether certain assumptions are or were justified or whether the club had any option but to ban the song. I'm only dealing here with the unwillingness of the club to communicate openly and honestly with the support - and their all to easy slippage into spin and half-truth. And why not? What reason could there possibly be for not wanting to make things clear to the ordinary supporter? (can you see my eyes roll) TBH, I'm not particularly into conspiracy theories. Only in opening eyes to the lack of respect the club has consistently shown towards its own supporters.

It's a long season, we'll need them all.

Are Rangers able to appeal the date change?

I think everyone is able to see the wood from the trees without too much problem. Since the original topic is basically about establishing an interaction with the club and since the foregoing TBB exchanges are essentially about how the club has handled it's dialogue with supporters' groups, I'd say the whole debate above is entirely relevant. N'est ce pas?

OK, I'll try saying this once more. I'm not disputing that the club or the Scottish authorities, stoked by the rhepublican media, wanted the song banned. I'm not even trying to establish a basis for its return. All I'm saying is that the club contrived the banning on a false basis and basically lied to the support. I've pretty much read everything that can be found on this matter and asked the RST and a number of those who were present at meetings with the club. But unless you or anyone else has new evidence that I don't know about, it's clear to me that UEFA banning TBB is nothing more than a convenient myth. It also seems that the SPL/SFA did not directly ban this song. Rather, the club was pressurised from all sides and was panicked into an action of its own making. Even that is fair enough but at least they could have had the balls to tell it like it was instead of spinning the matter until no one knew what had actually happened. Edit: PS - I'm done on this topic.