amms

With friends like you our club doesn't need enemies.

Are some people actually welcoming this, really? McCoist managed our club under the most trying of circumstances last season, without a functioning board, with a charlatan owner and against an almost constant backdrop of gossip, innuendo and rumour followed by administration, financial meltdown and a media feeding frenzy the like of which has never been seen before. He apparently went without a salary for a large part of last season and is credited with being the only steadying force at the club, indeed the fulcrum of Rangers for most of last season, during what is arguably the most difficult period in the clubs's history. He did this with the dignity we want from a Rangers manager. He at the very least should expect to get the same from us.

Just when you thought it couldnt get worse. Bloody hell.

Calscot your analogy is all over the place. Buy the bike you need to win the race youâ??re in, not some other race that needs a different bike. Iâ??ve no idea what your last sentence even means. Aha, tell me will it be â??sniff sniffâ?? next? Got to tell you I usually get the taig accusations within 50 posts, must try harder. No, Iâ??ve no idea why you are trying to attribute that to me. It isnâ??t even close to what I said. Iâ??ve no idea how old you are but Iâ??m old enough to remember pre-Souness times and the crowds we got then. Weâ??ll lose support if we drop down to mid-table SPL far less Div 3. You can accuse those who choose to attend less frequently of a lack of loyalty, you might be correct, however itâ??ll happen no matter what you say. You pay those leagues, and the clubs in them, far too little respect. There will be no bulldozing, weâ??ll need to fight hard and play well to win them, no matter what level of player we have.

TUPE is designed to protect the employee. This case is unusual because normally TUPE is used to stop a company taking over another company and making redundancies without having to honour previous length of service or contracts. In this case the question is can the employees chose to leave or can the new employer force them to honour their contracts with the 'old' company. As the 'old' company went into liquidation I'd say that all contracts of employment become null and void and all employees are entitled to statutory redundancy terms, the liquidator would explain this to them you'd expect. In most cases the employee is pleased to have the opportunity of a job at the 'new' company, however for footballers that might not be the case. I'd say the players hold the power here and that any of them can walk away from their contract without any repercussions as the 'company' that employed them is now in liquidation.

Yeah, I'm not sure about this. Your cycling analogy only works if you're cycling around a velodrome, but if you're cycling through your public park, over curbs, round prams, slowing down for dogs and trying to avoid rain filled pot holes you might be grateful your bike came from Halfords because the carbon fibre racing bike isn't suited for that terrain. Once you've made the journey to the racing track you can use your carbon fibre bike again. It would be foolish for us as a club to try and sign or keep SPL players for the 3rd Div. For a start the cost is prohibitive, you'd be looking at 3 year contracts, agents fees and insurance on top of any transfer fee (assuming we're allowed to sign someone). Then you have the motivation issue. Why would an SPL player with any ambition want to play in Div 3? Okay, for some a love of the club will play a part, and indeed the chance to say they played for Rangers will be an attraction, but for most, even the bluenoses will struggle to adapt to the drop in level. Motivation on the field is a factor too. How often have we seen our club struggle against obviously inferior players and teams? Plenty, because in reality it is harder to motivate a better player to perform against a poorer one than the other way around. For me it isn't a lack of ambition that means we'll need to sign some Div 3 players, it's the opposite. We'll need players who know that level, who know the players and personalities at that level, who know that someone is weak on their left side, another is easily wound up but can shoot from distance etc. Don't underestimate the need for knowledge. Just because you have better players doesn't mean you'll win, it's a team game and the team must be greater than the sum of its parts. It would be essential that we brought someone in on the coaching side who knew that level too. If we can secure a handful of experienced players, players like McCulloch, who have played at lower levels and understand the game I'd be happy to build a squad around him using younger players and lower league players. I'd be very happy to see the club approach Barry Ferguson and see if he fancies spending the twilight of his career rebuilding the his reputation and his old club. By all means have a couple of top players at the end of their careers who could still be playing at a higher level, that makes sense. But I think it is unrealistic and potentially ruinous to go into that Division with a team of SPL players and SPL salaries. All of this is of course hypothetical.

Fair play.

Well, just over 12 months, yes. This time last year we were not facing liquidation but the wheels were already in motion. My post that you quote needs to read in conjunction with the post I'm replying too though.

Absolutely, a huge risk, I agree. Cutting off our nose to spite our face is a big danger in all of this and you are correct to point that out. At this time the concept of an 'AFC Rangers' in the style of Wimbledon or FC United of Manchester is equally appealing to me just now. I accept that these are emotional responses rather than rationale ones. Unfortunately football is emotional, my attachement to Rangers is emotional, not rationale, as is yours I'd say, if it wasn't I'd be doing the work I'm being paid to currently rather than posting on here. Whatever decision is made regarding our future will need to take into account our emotional stance though, they'll need it to see us through this, without it we run the risk of being permanently hamstrung.

I agree there is a danger but there is a danger in whatever we do next, at least this direction has some semblance of integrity about it. There is no way we could charge £400 - £900 for a season ticket in Div 3, and nor should we. Our squad would consist of players considerably poorer than it does now and so our wage bill should reflect this. I accept the infrastructure of the club still needs funded but it's unrealistic to expect anyone to pay that for Div 3 or Div 2 football. I agree we might not be promoted, every game would be a cup tie for the opposition and the players at that level know the league, the teams in it and the players in it, we don't, we'd have a learning curve. However if that brings the depressingly high number of our support who believe success is something we are entitled too, rather than something we work for, to their senses it might not be a bad thing in the long term. We'll undoubtedly loose match going support, it's inevitable, but we'd still dwarf every other team in the league attendance wise. Those that stop attending will return if/when the good times return. Every club has a percentage of their support who only turn up for 'big' games, we're no different. Our club has never been relegated, that's something we are rightly proud of, however at this time if actually leaving the Scottish set-up isn't an option for us I'd rather drop to Div 3. It just feels like the right thing to do.

It had a part to play, but not a direct part in the last few months events and yesterdays decision. It undoubtedly was the motivation behind Lloyds desire to be rid of us. It also allowed people like Whyte to muddy the waters during the season when people spoke about HMRC and what we owed them. It also meant a good number of us took our eye of what was actually happening and spent time and energy looking at what might happen. But our administration and this weeks liquidation are the direct result of Craig Whyte and Duff & Phelps actions (inactions) over the last 12 months.

I've no desire to get involved in personality clashes but to have a go at another Rangers fan today of all days because he's stating how he feels is out of order. If you disagree with Gunslinger ignore him today isn't the day for pettiness, a big bit of our club died today for a lot of Rangers supporters.

Bloody hell.

I know a guy, a friends son. His mother is Catholic, he was christened into the Catholic church, went to Catholic school, did the first holy communion thing and is as big a bluenose as you'll ever meet. He's in his 20s now and is getting married soon, he's getting married in the Catholic church, his wife to be is catholic, he's wearing Rangers tartan kilt for it I'm told. He's not an attender every sunday morning but he goes from time to time and will go more regularly as his wedding approaches. He gets the support of us from his Dad. The journalist Ronnie Esplin did a bit on this in either the Manchester book or the other one that Speirs contributed to so everyone but me boycotted. If memory serves his son went to a RC school but is a bluenose. His son refused to take part in the school run 'draw Henrik Larson' competition if memory serves correctly. It's more common than people think.

He clearly feels all is not as it seems. He might be right, he might not be, but he's earned his right to speak surely? I have to say I also don't think Whyte is walking away from this with £2 in his pocket, that might be the bitter pill we need to swallow to get back on track though.

It's not that clubs can't change their strip colours, they can and do, Cardiff themselves did back in 1910 or some sort. It's that an individual or group of people with no connection to a club, with no feelings for a club and no understanding of what a football club means to its support can come in and change something as fundamental to the club as its strip. Their reasoning is bolloks too, short of winning the English Premier League Cardiff won't sell anymore strips in Malaysia or anywhere else in the far east for that matter, whatever colour they are. This is everything that's wrong with football currently, that a section of the Cardiff support are going along with this saddens me and bewilders me. I hope they get relegated. We've forgotten what football is meant to be about.

Thanks for the reply. I wonder if your housing association problem is more concerned with who complains, that's what often sparks an action, I can see why it annoys you though. I think you are confusing 'Protestant' with 'Orange'. I don't think many are embarrassed or feel shame with Rangers having a 'Protestant' connection, I think some do about a perceived 'Orange' connection though. The vast majority of our support are at least culturally Protestant however most aren't 'Orange' or indeed have any connection or interest in Orangism. I think the religious connection to our, and Celtic's, support is overplayed. I think the biggest draw is the football, without that we're nothing. The attendance trend is being mirrored in most European leagues, the successful bigger city clubs are keeping and growing their support and the smaller provincial clubs are losing theirs. I actually believe the biggest threat to us, apart from the spectre of bampot owners, is from English clubs. we've a whole generation growing up who can access the English Premeir League far more easily than Scottish games, eventually that's going to take an effect. A quick look over the Irish Sea should show us how that plays out eventually. For what it's worth I think as society and so our greater support become more secular you'll be having this conversation more and more, at the same time I've no problem with any of the specific songs you mentioned, Rule Britannia isn't a favourite under normal circumstances but I enjoy the effect it has on the away support!

This is a bizarre move, how are we not speaking to out of contract players yet signing contracts (I assume) with airlines and hotels? This doesn't make sense to me.

Interesting piece in the Scottish Review which kind of relates to some of the stuff being discussed on this and other threads, worth 5 minutes of your time - http://www.scottishreview.net/AlasdairMcKillop281.shtml

Xander1873 â?? I think you might be correct that we could find ourselves going round in circles and I accept Iâ??m unlikely to change your mind on some subjects but that was never my goal anyway. Iâ??m just curious why you feel, apparently strongly, the way you do about some of this. Iâ??ve no agenda beyond that. With regard your housing association and flags you should at least speak to citizens advice about that. Ban all flags or none but they canâ??t ban the Union flag on itâ??s own, is there more to that story perhaps? Iâ??d like to take issue with a couple of things you said in your last post. Iâ??m obviously not making myself clear on the relevancy question. I accept it is relevant because weâ??re discussing it, Iâ??m asking why you feel it is relevant when most of the country no longer feel itâ??s relevant in their lives far less at a football match? It puzzles me, you say you sing Hymns at your church, that makes sense, but you sing songs about the history of â??yourâ?? country and freedom from tyrannical monarchy at the football. Fan culture means we sing songs at football that have little or no connection to the â??gameâ?? from Penny Arcade to Simply the Best, pretty much every club has something similar. Do you sing the freedom and monarchy songs anywhere else? For the record Iâ??d have a problem with a Muslim or a Catholic expressing their faith at a Rangers match, Iâ??m surprised you wouldnâ??t. They should keep it for their places of worship. I donâ??t know what Scottish attendances downturn you refer too, can you elaborate? I must have misunderstood your post about our founders and an Orange link, fair enough. Is someone trying to take â??your placeâ?? at the club away, again serious question, do you feel thatâ??s happening?

I'm not sure he would have got another contract had everything been rosy to be fair. Good luck to him, joined us a few years too late. A good guy around the dressingroom I believe, his presence will be missed.

Many do, however I was talking about the present and the future not the past. You used the word 'untangle' yet I see no evidence of this, no one is trying to untangle our past, I'm not sure how you would even do that. I do see people asking what the relevance is of this today though, I'm not sure what the answer to that is? Yeah interesting, not really answering the question though is it? Hang on, with the exception of Celtic, Hibs and arguably Dundee Utd for a period every club in Scotland has a connection with the 'Protestant community' or 'the community' as it's normally known! Rangers were drawing big crowds in the late 1800s and early 1900s before any suggestion of a religious connection was being made. It was Rangers quality of football and the accessibility of Ibrox that brought the crowds, the rest followed that. Rangers mirrored the society around it, I've no difficulty believing Rangers would have enjoyed huge success had that society evolved differently than it did. Again, not exactly answering the question. The law allows us to do lots of things, they aren't compulsory though. So why at the football and not somewhere more appropriate like a church or a political party? You said they had a link to our founders, I asked what that link was because I'd never heard of an Orange link to our founders before. There might be one and I thought you knew it. Seems you were being a bit misleading then. What part of your culture is being continuously attacked then, and by who?

Untangle? Things move on, evolve naturally surely, it's not about what's gone before but what's happening now and in the future. If a Muslim started bringing their religion into their support of Rangers I think a lot of people would have a problem with that, if a Roman Catholic did it I don't think that would go down well with some either. It's not that it's a dirty secret, bloody hell could it be any less of a secret, it's that it's inappropriate. There are other, more obvious vehicles for religious or political views than a football match, or messageboard for that matter. I don't accept this at all. Rangers are based in the the most populous part of the most populous city in the country, there was a fair chance we would have enjoyed a lot of success and support no matter what. We claimed our place among the games elite in this country through hard work and skill on the pitch, well before any 'Protestant' association was made with us. How can you say that Rangers would not have become the countries most successful club anyway? But why at a football match? Why celebrate 'your heritage' there. Why not at a church or in a political party and celebrate football and sport at the game? No one is asking for you to apologise for your beliefs just not to impose them on those who might not share them. What are the Orange links to our foundations, genuine question? Why say that, are you not able to express your culture, that seems a remarkable view to be honest?

I'd suggest it is almost impossible to be impartial in a city like Glasgow, so why even try. Some people will always hear bias whether it is there or not. I don't understand why Clyde don't simply have a 'Rangers' show, with Rangers related guests and Rangers related topics and a Celtic show for them. With digital and online broadcasting these could be done simultaneously on different frequencies. It won't affect advertising revenue as the same commercials can be run on both shows. Overheads will rise but not prohibitively so I imagine. This obsession broadcast media have with perceived neutrality baffles me. We don't need people who are neutral we need people who are profesional and good at their job. When it comes to football in Scotland no one is neutral or unbiased, Clyde, Real, the BBC et al should accept that and work with it. I've no problem listening to a Celtic supporters view on something if it is cohesive, thoughtful and well presented and it is clear the person is a Celtic supporter and this informs their view. I may disagree with them but I can listen and accept it. Just don't pretend it is unbiased or factual when it's biased and subjective.

Fair point!