calscot

As Rangers don't tend to pay dividends, no sale of a player is good for shareholders. SDM owns 91% of the shares and so talk of shareholders is a bit moot in any case. If he thought that being fiscally tight was the best way to increase the value of his shares he wouldn't have sanctioned the 20M budget that WS has had to spend. He realises that the best way to increase the value of Rangers FC is to have a successful team on the pitch, winning the league and playing the CL every year, while of course, not letting spending go out of control. To that end, selling Cuellar would not be good for the shareholders unless the money was used to improve the team to a better level than it was with him in it.

It's got to be pointed out that we hardly played 4-5-1 in the SPL last season, it was actually usually 4-3-3. Didn't stop people moaning though. It seems to me that the formation is actually irrelevant to fans. What they want is entertaining, high speed, attacking football and even 0-0-10 doesn't guarantee it. However, when something about the tactics can be quantified it's far easier to measure and discuss.

It's plausible. We now have far less money and Fulham's hand is now much weaker. We simply can't afford 4M so it's take it or leave it time and they could have folded. I can't see why. The club have said many times we've more money to spend in the budget and that Cuellar will stay. You may not trust them but you'd think they'd be more vague before performing a U-turn? Not many people are comfortable about lying in public when it will be made obvious a few weeks later. People usually lie when they don't think they will be caught - or do so in a way that their words are open to interpretation.

There is no way that someone would sell a club with 28M in the bank for 6M. I'm pretty sure the price was 6M because there were debts there. The pools may have raised decent money and helped pay for the stadium but I can's see how it could raise more than say 2M a year (and that's being highly optimistic). I find it hard to believe the pools paid for the stadium in full never mind leaving a surplus that wasn't spent on the team. When you think about it the debt makes sense as we'd just hired Graeme Souness and become Britain's biggest spender in the transfer market and our wages went from less than Leicester's to the highest in the UK. That would obviously mean borrowing to pay for the way above normal capital expenditure as the cash flow for that kind of spending would obviously not be there otherwise. But hey don't let logic get in the way of good anti-Murray propaganda.

What I can't understand is why so many people find it hard to believe that one of our players was injured... I think it's more unbelievable that at Ibrox of all places, we had our best player fit fot about 65 games in a season. That's probably unprecidented. Our injury record is horrendous yet our fans start conspiracy theories when one player is out for a few weeks... The Tims must be rolling in the aisles and they certainly seem to have passed on the baton for the most paranoid fans.

Perhaps we should base your ability to analyse the game with whether you are right. If Cuellar doesn't play another game for Rangers then I will start to pay more attention to what you say. But if he does play, then it will show that you are just an attention seeker who knows hee haw.

The tangible assets have increased substantially over the years. You might not agree with the revaluations but as listed in the accounts their value have never been higher. I don't know what your agenda is but you seem to be spouting one mistruth after another and then calling anyone who disagrees agrees with you, "spineless". I think you'll find that most people on here are aware of SDM's shortcomings, however we don't feel any need to make it up stuff to get angry about. I feel it's always far more beneficial to keep a good grip of the facts.

I think you are just plain wrong here. Whether his choices have worked does not disguise the fact that ALL his choices were credible. Walter was highly regarded and rewarded us with our best ever European cup run, as well as 7 titles to deliver us 9 in a row. He won many trophies as well. The rest of his Euro exploits were poor but he did enough to justify his appointment. He didn't do so well with Everton but it was under incredibly difficult circumstances. However, he was still credible enough to be handed the assistant manager's job at Man U and went on to restore Scotland's credibility. His first year in the job also justified his appointment but that appears to possibly be the end of his shelf life this time. Advocaat came with huge credibility and showed us some great football but his style of management had a two year shelf life. He was sucessful before us and has been successful since. Eck was the most promising young manager in Scotland and that's where his credibility came from and he did well with little or no resources at Motherwell and Hibs. PLG was the most promising young manager in Europe and had won three titles in a row in France after doing well with a smaller team. No-one could argue with his credentials and he was considered coup at the time. No-one could predict how big a flop he would be. His credibility at appointment was impeccable. So to me all the managers were credible and we've had plenty of success at the club since Souness as well as plenty of lows. But I doubt that many could genuinely complain at the choice of managers.

PLG was offered more money but didn't spend it. Clement was no better than Thomson and probably not as good, and Sionko was a lot worse than Novo.

I really don't think SDM and WS can afford to do that at this juncture. You can only disgruntle the fans so much before it seriously backfires on you. Cuellar will still be worth 12M next summer, so why sell him now? He could be worth 15M to our bank balance if he stays and helps us win the league. Now is DEFINITELY not the time for any intelligent person at the club to sell ANY of our BEST players. We need to choose from the lesser performers, bit part players and those unhappy at the club for those that need to go. That list would probably include: Smith (goalie), Broadfoot, Wier, Webster, Dailly, Burke, Hemdani, McCulloch, Adam, Gow, Cousin, Darcheville and Boyd. However, a couple are injured and a couple have just signed a contract. I would be willing to bet that Cuellar will not leave during this transfer window.

We'd be lucky to get about 1.7M for him at the moment. Darche is probalby worth about 500k max due to his injury problems and age. We should take 2M for McCulloch though and I'd rather sell Boyd than Cuellar - he doesn't seem to get a look in anyway. Hemdani would probably only raise a token fee of about 250k. I'd like to get rid of Burke but he's injured so no chance.

I hate it when fans go on about playing youngsters while conveniently forgetting the abuse they gave to the likes of Mo Ross, Alan Hutton, Bob Malcolm, Chris Burke, Stephen Hughes and Charlie Adam as well as many others. Even Boyd is highly criticised and he's still a relatively young player.# Lafferty is already off to a bad start too and Webster isn't getting much support. Broadfoot is only 24 and is currently getting the pelters. So just how would a bunch of teenagers cope if they are not an instant hit?

I've always actually thought that Celtic fans are actually far worse sectarian wise than Rangers fans, although I think they are far more clever about how they go about it, which is why we're always the ones that get caught. Rangers fans need to learn that shooting yourself in the foot while trying to wind someone up is pretty stupid indeed. I don't doubt Celtic park is also a morgue but I think both sets of fans should take a look at themselves before slagging off their teams for lackluster performances. I always think you should only criticise people for stuff that you are reasonably innocent of. If the fans are giving it their all, encouraging rather than booing, and there is still a performance with no heart on the pitch, then they really have cause for complaint. Celtic fans have shown themselves up there and are either almost gutted Strachan won the league or completely ashamed of themselves. However, I'm of the thinking that Strachan only won by default after our players failed to deliver their best when under pressure of so many games. I can't imagine that Celtic fans helped their team but as the criticism was more aimed at the manager, I actually think Strachan did a good job of absorbing it and protecting his team from it. Again I agree with the circumstances and I know even for myself I'd have bought shares had it not been merely a month till Christmas. However, I still think you cannot slag off DM for not spending MORE than 51M of his money on Rangers, when the fans themselves are not willing to dig deep. There is much irony also in this when you consider the fans want more say in the running of the club. Buying a substantial proportion of shares would have helped expedite this. If 45,000 fans who spend �£500 on a season ticket, just spent �£100 more each on shares. That would be 4.5M more shares in the fans ownership. If another 45,000 without season tickets did the same thing then that would be another 4.5M. If 150K Rangers fans who spent at least �£200 each in going to Manchester, to watch the game on a screee, instead invested the money in Rangers shares while watching the game at home, that would be 30M of equity. We have the money but we're going for short term enjoyment rather than pragmatic long term thinking. That's information I didn't know, however it does seem to the layman that Celtic's finances are a good bit better than Rangers even though they were close to bankruptcy so recently. I agree with that, but like I say, it is their fans who also help with this and ours could do with being a bit more clever about the whole thing. We could trounce Celtic's public image by merely abandoning the weird compulsion to shout, that F phrase and other contentious songs and chants that are sung for sheer bloody mindedness rather than any heart felt beliefs. If we cleaned up our act, we'd at a stroke show them for what they are.

Like I said, tell me what exactly he has done wrong, bar choose his management team? What more can a chairman do than pick the management team, provide a reasonable budget while looking after club finances, and provide decent training facilities and stadium to play in. Once he's done that, in what way can he influence results without going down the Romanov route? I think it's a pretty good thing that he has not chosen the team and has not chosen which players to spend the money on and that he does not interfere with the management, which is where all your criticism is based. At the time, choosing Walter was not a badly thought out decision, the budget he has supplied has been ample with respect to our wealth and the training facilities are fantastic. A few months ago we'd beaten Celtic 4 times in a row, were 10 points ahead of them and were in the latter stages of 3 cups. Just how is SDM responsible for the complete collapse of the players' form? Like I said I'm not a fan of SDM but I'm struggling to see how he's responsible in this case. Even now, the only thing he can do, ranges from giving Walter a bollocking to sacking him.

PS I think there is now a parallel between PLG and WS. Walter has lately seemed blind to the obvious failings of his team/squad and as he has not properly acknowledged them, he has not addressed them. He has had a go at the fans instead of taking some valid criticism on the chin and is now blaming the players. There is nothing in management so destructive as denial and our last three managers seemed to have suffered that affliction.

For the umpteenth time I have to point out that PLG was not sacked because of Barry Ferguson, it was his horrendous run of results and refusal to acknowledge what was wrong with his team and his responsibility to that effect. Had his team been constantly winning with style, been at the top of the league and beaten St Johnstone in the league cup, it would have been been Barry who would have left the club. Basically PLG tried to use Ferguson as a scapegoat for his own inadequacies but it just didn't wash.

I knew this would result in Rangers fans paying more...

Bite hand off time?

I pretty much agree with what you are saying although I do think selling something gives you additional motivation to get it in good shape. The most effort into diy I've ever done was to sell a house - just as it became quite nice to live in. The thing is while I agree with you it's precisely because you're not doing what so many fans are doing. You understand the situation and don't see him as someone deliberately running the club down and trying to syphon off as much money as possible. I think it IS there job to understand if they want to criticise certain aspects, especially the finances. You can't go around accusing people of stealing �£30M just because you think you know about money when you've pretty much got a primary school understanding and would struggle to balance your pocket money. It's like a child complaining to his dad about not getting a brand new PS3 or whatever while his dad struggles to pay the mortgage, loans and bills. If they are a consumer then they are entitled to take their business elsewhere if they don't like the product. I don't think you can always compare fans to consumers. Part of being a fan is thoaling the bad times. It also depends what kind of person you are - do you want to focus on results or aesthetics - it's easy to say "both" but much harder to actually implement it. I would argue that for Kaunas we have Zhizkov, for losing the league by 3 points we have losing the league by 17 points, for winning 2 out of 2 cups, Eck's got 4 out of 10, for Eck's Euro run, we had the UEFA cup final. Eck averaged about 10pts less than Celtic per season, Smith has averaged about 2 more. For Smiths boring football that rolled over lesser teams and fought bravely to win against bigger ones, Eck had a boring farce of a team which had to fight bravely to win against the wee teams and capitulated badly against the bigger ones. Smith has a record of 4 wins to 2 against Celtic, I can't remember Eck's but it was bad. Walter has balls up big time but he's still doing better than Eck. He just needs a league win this year to have a comprehensively better record. I doubt anyone took moonbeams seriously. We did need a PLG type and got the man himself, only he can tell us why he failed so badly. That is something that definitely deserves criticism and I have no problem with that. This is where I'm not sure you can blame SDM. Seems to me that Walter gets the blame here. SDM has furnished him with a decent budget, fantastic training facilities and highly respected backroom staff. The only thing he can be blamed for was the sale of Hutton of which I can understand completely - and Walter has got all the money back to spend. Smith was a highly regarded manager and popular choice with many and he did a great job until the turn of this year where we seemed to have hit a slippery slope. I think the buck has to stop with Walter for this season's debacle.

Perhaps, but getting through against Kaunas was nothing special, getting beat was a shock. If we'd won the UEFA cup and held onto the league, I'm sure the place would be very busy with plaudits. If we had beaten Barcelona to get into the last 16 in the CL, the place would have been busy too. We're busy in exceptional circumstances and it so happens that the circumstances are very negative.

And recently has he not made a reasonably good fist of both?

Your track record is more than your last few games. We're still almost in preseason, so to base the future of the season on that is not realistic. You at least have to base it on the last year and in that sense Walter has done ok. I don't think that Walter will take to any dizzy heights - although he was a whisker away from it last season. But I do expect him to bring back the title. The team have been shite all summer, but that could be seen as a glitch, albeit one that has led to a 10M deficit. However, if he wants to blame the players then he needs to drop half of them who are the worst offenders. If he blames himself he needs to change what he's doing and turn it around immediately or simply drop himself and resign.

Pretty much agree with that assessment.

I would disagree there, I think it's far more personal for him and is connected to his ego. Our fans are more worried about which badge a player kissed, which religion they are, and how prettily we play football than any success. I would say SDM is far more focused on results than the fans. However, just like us he can't go out and kick every ball for the players (metaphorically of course). He also knows he has to look after the long term finances of the club, something which most of our fans just don't seem to understand.

I agree he may not be the man to deliver, but my argument is against those that say he doesn't want it. I definitely think there was a time at the turn of the century when he lost all interest and that's when he handed the chairmanship over. The club was 70M in debt and just wasn't "fun" anymore. However, he showed renewed enthusiasm and paid 50M to remove the shackles of the debt and also brought in the most promising young manager in Europe. That was a mistake on hindsight but no-one could have predicted that at the time. It was the kind of risk that most fans are always advocating and I can't see how SDM was to blame there. Then he brought in an old favourite who brought the club some of our biggest successes. That seemed like a good move too, and the first one and half seasons have looked totally promising - and we were so close to the quadruple. He's also funded the manager with over 20M for players. So while again, I'm not an SDM fan, I can't really see how he's to blame for the results on the pitch over the last two seasons. And it sometimes feels strange that we're talking so gloomily about failure after last season. I think any lack of success in the last two and a bit seasons can be put down to the managers and players. SDM seems to have done his part of the job. And if we're going to have a go at people for our success or lack of, what about our fans? I'm not that impressed with our contributions. We bring the club into disrepute with sectarian crap, Ibrox is like a morgue, we cause trouble and even riot on our travels, we boo our own players, and even when we're winning and doing well all we do is moan about the style of football. We hound our managers mercilessly and continuously slag off our players. Also when we're asked to put up about 7M in a share issue, we put up about 1M - Celtic fans have raised about 50M in share issues which is what put them back into financial health. I would not be surprised if all that negativity rubbed off on the players and it's no wonder they lack confidence. When a UEFA cup final and a smidgen away from the treble is considered shite by your fans then where is your confidence supposed to come from?