Crowd not looking good for tomorrow

[craig 5,199]

Just because there are extenuating circumstances doesnt mean we should expect high standards of our club.

 

We are in the 3rd division and have the funds far, far, far in excess of any other club in the lower leagues. Yes, we are unbeaten but only a stubborn person would not concede that we have been incredibly lucky in the 2 drawn games.

 

We should be able to put a far better product out on the pitch, we have SPL players up against Div 3 players, and struggling.

 

I am prepared to give them time due to the circumstances for sure - but not a whole lot more. We should be beating these teams comfortably.

[54andcounting 0]

Some are going on about the players not being familiar with each other - no wonder when they're off to golf courses and getting haircuts and such at noon.

[calscot 0]

Just because there are extenuating circumstances doesnt mean we should expect high standards of our club.

 

We are in the 3rd division and have the funds far, far, far in excess of any other club in the lower leagues. Yes, we are unbeaten but only a stubborn person would not concede that we have been incredibly lucky in the 2 drawn games.

 

We should be able to put a far better product out on the pitch, we have SPL players up against Div 3 players, and struggling.

 

I am prepared to give them time due to the circumstances for sure - but not a whole lot more. We should be beating these teams comfortably.

 

I don't think there is anyone that doesn't want us to play well. However, it seems a bit much when you boo the conductor during the warmup... It's also ludicrous to think that as someone who has never played in an orchestra that you can do a far better job of conducting than a top violinist who is highly qualified for the job and served a pretty good apprenticeship.

 

We may have far higher resources than our rivals, but I always thought the beauty of football is that with 11 men against 11, if the underdogs put the effort in, they can sometimes get a result.

 

We've already been talking on here about Hearts lucky to beat Auchinleck Talbot, then an incredibly highly paid Liverpool team were extremely lucky to beat Hearts. We're not in some parallel universe to the rest of football where it only happens to us - it happens all the time. The problem is that many on here don't seem to acknowledge that.

 

Just what is everyone comparing us to? Which manager in the SPL dispatches lower division teams in the cups in away games with ease and playing lovely football? In fact I think the last SPL manager to praised for good football was Yogi, and wasn't his team relegated?

 

Falkirk are now known for good football so surely a game against them should produce something watchable? I'm of the belief that football just doesn't work that way.

 

Should we be touting Yogi for manager?

[craig 5,199]

So we should accept abject pish calscot ? Or are you suggesting that what we witnessed at the weekend was acceptable ? Or, given the team needs "time", just how much time do they get allowed ?

 

Is it acceptable for them to be training for 2-3 hours after a performance such as Sunday ?

 

The more we accept the poor performances the more the standard drops.

 

I am in the "needs time" camp and I also understand the circumstances surrounding where we are and am prepared to give scope and time for that, more than many of our fans, but that still doesnt mean that we should be making excuses for it or accepting it as the norm.

 

Just because SPL teams dont dispatch lower division teams doesnt mean we should lower our expectations to those SPL teams. We should expect more, a whole lot more, from our club than struggling against 3rd division teams. As I say, I accept it as it is early in a season where we have had no pre-season but after another 3 or 4 games this team should be performing to much higher standards than they currently are.

 

Liverpool effectively played their reserves against Hearts so that is a very poor comparison IMO. The Talbot one is close to my heart but, still, was a one off. Berwick could have been a one-off. But then we had Peterhead. Wait, Peterhead was the 1st league game so it was a one-off. So what about Sunday ? Is it a one-off too ? How many "one-offs" do we allow the team ?

 

How much professional pride do they have in underperforming against part-timers ?

[Thinker 887]

Showing up for a game doesn't mean you accept the performance of the team.

 

In fact, it's the perfect place to voice your objections.

 

Turn up, support the club, and let the players know when they need to get their fingers out.

[simplythebest 0]

I accepted from the start we'd get caught out on the very odd occasion despite some expecting a 100% record.

 

However, it's been two very poor results and performances three games in, but for two slices of luck in injury time we'd actually have lost both games. You could even argue it took us an awful long time to wake up vs East Stirling.

 

But 99 times out of 100 we should be beating these teams with relative ease and it's not good enough if we can't.

[der Berliner 3,292]

So we should accept abject pish calscot ? ...

 

No disrespect whatsoever, but did you actually read what calscot put up there?

 

No-one lowers the expectations here nor accepts low-key standards, but neither is the often present high-nosed attitude when talking anything 3rd appropriate. I am quite surprised by the "either / or" - attitude shown by some when debating the team at present. I'd suggest to let this rest for a month now and if things are still downright aweful (and I assume that some will find iut this way no matter what), we can debate again. And to give you a sending off ere I leave this debate, rest assured, we won't get relegated this season!

[simplythebest 0]

No disrespect whatsoever, but did you actually read what calscot put up there?

 

No-one lowers the expectations here nor accepts low-key standards, but neither is the often present high-nosed attitude when talking anything 3rd appropriate. I am quite surprised by the "either / or" - attitude shown by some when debating the team at present. I'd suggest to let this rest for a month now and if things are still downright aweful (and I assume that some will find iut this way no matter what), we can debate again. And to give you a sending off ere I leave this debate, rest assured, we won't get relegated this season!

 

Surely you need to wait till we play another game (tonight obviously) and show improvement before expecting people to just forget about it?

 

Even then, there will be doubt until we go to Annan, considering away matches have been the big problem.

[calscot 0]

So we should accept abject pish calscot ? Or are you suggesting that what we witnessed at the weekend was acceptable ? Or, given the team needs "time", just how much time do they get allowed ?

 

I'm not saying we should accept abject pish; however, surely the odd hiccup or bad performance at the beginning can be forgiven as long as it is acknowledged and improvement made reasonably soon? Maybe for me I don't get this "accept" attitude. I see Rangers a bit like a family member and so I'm somewhat forgiving. So thinking of family members, if you're son started in a new team and had a "pish" game or two but didn't throw the game away, how would you treat him? Like the board members on here - giving him derogatory remarks at every opportunity?

 

Would you accept "abject pish" from him and if not, how would you deal with it? How much time would you give him? How would you talk to him and when would you give up on him and suggest he try another sport or hobby?

 

I think the amount of "time" needed would be till about a month after the transfer window closes. For me there is a score that mounts up with a threshold and I don't go apoplectic before the threshold is met. If Ally had lost every game then I'd be far more likely to be putting up for questioning but he's so far unbeaten. While that does not constitute an A it also doesn't constitute an F- more like a C-, "must do better". But you have to be given time to do better and although none of us are going to be able to be the head master that calls Ally to account, it seems pretty obvious that he doesn't really need it as he can see it for himself. What good is there to rub it in further?

 

People really have to ask themselves, what good is all this sniping doing - will it really change anything bar make you and others miserable? If it won't help your son improve, then why would it help the team?

 

Is it acceptable for them to be training for 2-3 hours after a performance such as Sunday ?

 

To be honest I don't pretend to have a clue how much they train or how much they should be training. I'm no expert in what is the optimal amount to train but as a qualified weightlifting instructor, I do know about over-training and that sometimes less is more. Rest is an important part of physical training and "active rest" (eg walking) is very beneficial. Jig is lambasted for playing golf, but that seems a good supplementary sport to me. It's not over doing it while walking for miles at a lowish intensity which is supposed to be very good for you physiologically in addition to high intensity training. Psychologically, golf when played well, is a pretty good game for teaching you sports psychology and how not to lose your nerve. It's all about staying in the moment and visualising your next move before doing it. Forget about past shots and how you're doing and play for the now.

 

I think that could apply very well to a sport which seems to eschew that sort of thinking. Even rugby has adopted those principles when taking kicks but when do you see a penalty, freekick, corner taker relax his body and visualise the shot before taking it? Not even the top teams do this so how does our training compare to theirs?

 

We seem to be assuming other teams like Everton train more than us but I've seen Rangers teams outplay Premiership teams in friendlies and what about our UEFA cup run? We didn't look 10 yards off the pace then.

 

The more we accept the poor performances the more the standard drops.

 

As I said, what do we do when we don't accept the performances that will stop the standard dropping. I can't see how snidy remark after snidy remark on a forum is going to help in the slightest. I doubt it would help your son if done to his face.

 

I am in the "needs time" camp and I also understand the circumstances surrounding where we are and am prepared to give scope and time for that, more than many of our fans, but that still doesnt mean that we should be making excuses for it or accepting it as the norm.

 

Who is accepting it as the norm? I really don't know what you're suggesting we should be doing... I always think encouraging and supporting works much better than lambasting and ridiculing. For a manager, there is a time when enough is enough and maybe some people think circumstances don't matter and not winning by five goals every game is unacceptable, but I see that as extreme.

 

So many said Eck and PLG needed more time when they didn't deserve it and had enough to show they were going nowhere. Nobody was telling them to go after a couple of bad draws in 6 games.

 

There are some who think that he didn't do well enough last season but for me, a ten point deduction and administration and pay cuts gives a manager a get out of jail free card. There are at least 2 on here who have said that it is unacceptable that he didn't win the league and that's just ridiculous. He achieved a better league position than Eck's last season and the projected finish of PLG and yet even with his circumstances he gets far less leeway than those two.

 

 

Just because SPL teams dont dispatch lower division teams doesnt mean we should lower our expectations to those SPL teams.

 

Why not? Just where are our expectations? We have to ground them somehow and sacking someone for not being ten times better than his peers with similar resources seems a bit unfair. The point is that we have to look around to see what is normal before we can put a level on what is acceptable. You seem to be throwing that out of the window because we've been at the top of the game for so long. Should Nottingham fans expect to win the Champions League every season? You have be somewhat realistic in how achievable your goals are under your circumstances at the time.

 

I broke my leg two years ago but have started playing football again - should I lower my expectations of how I play? Should I give myself some time? Or give up after not being very good for the first six games?

 

Liverpool effectively played their reserves against Hearts so that is a very poor comparison IMO.

 

That looks like double standards to me. You are saying that the team Liverpool put out were of a similar level to Hearts? Shouldn't they have been of a much higher standard than Hearts. Our team looks like a bit of a reserve team, when does a level of difference count in your eyes? I think that's a very contradictory argument.

 

The Talbot one is close to my heart but, still, was a one off. Berwick could have been a one-off. But then we had Peterhead. Wait, Peterhead was the 1st league game so it was a one-off. So what about Sunday ? Is it a one-off too ? How many "one-offs" do we allow the team ?

 

Maybe you should tell me. Are you saying that Ally's had three strikes and should be sacked? How many is it? Are we less than that number? If so, shouldn't we wait till we reach that number? You're arguing against yourself here. Either Ally has had enough time and enough bad games or he hasn't. The time to judge him is when he has, not before.

 

How much professional pride do they have in underperforming against part-timers ?

 

You seem to be using "part-timers" as a derogatory term here which is a bit disrespectful to those players in my opinion.

 

Judging by the interviews I'm pretty sure that the team and manager are embarrassed by the way they played. So what is that you want to achieve? I don't really know. If you're son is embarrassed about how he played do you let him sort himself out or do you go out to truly demoralise him?

 

That's the point, I really don't know what people here want to achieve bar sacking Ally now. I've seen prejudging with Walter, with certain players and even with the fans ("we'll be lucky to get 20k in div 3") and many have been proven wrong time and again.

 

There is nothing wrong with discussing shortfalls in the performance but that is not what has been happening. I could easily join in all the vitriol towards Ally but that's not my style. I like to be reasonable in my judgements and I take time and mitigation into account. I wanted Advocaat sacked, Eck sacked and PLG sacked, but I at least gave them a fair crack of the whip first. In fact I was very supportive in the beginning for all them - the same as McCoist.

 

To my shame I even wanted Walter to go after we lost 10 in a row, but I think I've learned from that.

[craig 5,199]

No time to read through all of that today cal, sorry. Will try to either tonight or tomorrow.

 

I am STILL in the "needs time" camp but I think there are still too many excuses from us, which is in essence accepting of what has been served up. If the players are embarrassed by the way they have played then they arent learning... because it has happened in 3 out of 5 matches already, with some saying teh East Stirling win wasnt much better, despite the scoreline.

 

But I will come back to this. Sorry.