stole this from ff. re dortmund. (a great example to us)

[amms 0]

hes rather missed the point though.

 

dortmund had to build themselves up again from nothing. they did so by targeting youth and by improving scouting.

 

most of the player he points out are 23 etc. have been there 5 years since they were teenagers and were playing when they were.

 

I don't agree with everything Calscot writes, but he usually brings a lot of thought to what he posts. There was a lot of work in his opening post and it impressed me, enough that I thought I should let him know it. One of the reasons I like Gersnet is people are usually civil to each other, respectful, I accept it can get heated and we're all capable of low blows and insults (I am certainly) but generally people make the effort to keep it 'business' not personal. So when someone like Calscot goes to the effort to check and calculate or find those figures and then posts them and so educates me I think he deserves praise.

You don't have to agree with them, you can challenge them, refute them even, but I just wanted to acknowledge the work done in providing them, it was interesting reading I thought.

[calscot 0]

C'mon...are you at the wind up? A one season wonder? Are you forgetting they won the previous 2 Bundesliga titles before this season when Bayern where also very strong (ie. Getting to CL's finals) As for the UEFA rankings.... like the FIFA ones' date=' they are utterly pointless.[/quote']

 

I was talking in the context of European performances. They are 20 points behind Bayern this season. So you're telling me they are getting much worse? That would be virtually a sackable offence at Rangers... As would the European performances till this season.

 

I think you lot are at the wind up. According to your argument, Alex Ferguson should be sacked even though he won the league again... As should EVERY Premiership manager.

 

In fact that's where it really is a wind up. People are trying to compare Rangers with a top German club when were in the third division! Shouldn't you all really be on Footie Chat slagging off EVERY EPL coaching team? After all every one has the budget to match Dortmund and the carrot of the EPL to attract the coaches and players. That's a hell of a lot more relevant than our club while it's still in crisis - or even still in Scottish football.

[der Berliner 3,263]

Seems to me that people want a team full of kids. They get one and low and behold they don't find them good enough...

 

Indeed. What people also forget is that many (as in: MANY) other teams also go the BVB route, either out of "trying something new", or because of necessity. You generally only hear about the success stories though. For each BVB or Swansea or *take your pick* there are dozens upon dozens teams who struggle or faulter. This all is not to say that the BVB way is bad. But you have to put it into perspective. And when it comes to Rangers - while scouting foreign markets is always fine (even though hundreds of teams do so too*) - the pool of Scottish talent alone is "somewhat" smaller than BVB's German talent pool over here.

 

*And Czech, Slovak, Polish, Dutch et al talent rather goes to the Bundesliga than crossing Hadrian's Wall ...

[calscot 0]

hes rather missed the point though.

 

dortmund had to build themselves up again from nothing. they did so by targeting youth and by improving scouting.

 

most of the player he points out are 23 etc. have been there 5 years since they were teenagers and were playing when they were.

 

I think I've got the point but I'm not sure if you get the one that you are using hindsight as wisdom and the fact they are out performing everyone, not just us means that not only are they an incredibly difficult success to emulate, there is probably a good dose of luck involved.

 

There is no model that guarantees success and we should be looking for one that has a very good and sustained track record of well above average results.

 

Dortmund ARE looking good but we dont' know if it's something that is sustainable and can be copied with success. No-one can even say that it is something that scales down to our level as they have the buying power to snap up their first choices of the most promising young players. And it looks like that's how they've built their team - in complete contradiction of the developing youth model mostly advocated on here. And can you really compare a 17m euro 23 year old with Andy Little? Or even Templeton?

 

In fact looking at that it more agrees with my own philosophy although I'd probably have aimed for one or two more experienced players.

 

It also took them 6 years to finish in the top three of the top league. So perhaps we need to give our club a chance. Their final positions in the intervening years would NOT be acceptable here.#

 

I agree we need to look at other clubs and their success and what we can learn from them.

 

However, I don't agree we should run our own club down using unfair comparisons to the flavour of the month (or year) or call to just glibly copy the them.

 

As I said, if we're going to copy others, I rather they had a model that delivers consistently over time and that CAN be copied. But the trouble is if it can be copied and delivers success, what if everyone does it? Seems to me that the next best team will be one that does something DIFFERENT - maybe like present day Dortmund...

 

The way to keep winning is to be one step ahead, not behind.

[calscot 0]

Actually, I think the best and easiest model to emulate for CL success would be Chelsea. Get a billionaire to buy us and then spend a billion on us... They have a much better record than Dortmund.

 

Or should we copy Liverpool and Milan who met each other in the final twice in 2005 and 2007. Their model of doing things then must be paying off now...

[the gunslinger 3,366]

I'm not suggesting we can achieve cl semi finals. just that that is the correct path to recovery and showing via Dortmund that it can be done.

[Zappa 0]

Have to agree with most of Calscot's points so far gunslinger.

 

Personally, I think the aspects of German football which we should be putting serious thought into trying to emulate or copy here in Scottish football are completely different to what the thread was started about.

 

For me, German football is getting it right with 3 things in particular:

 

1. Low ticket prices which almost guarantee sell out (or close to capacity) crowds at most of the clubs every week.
   
2. Safe standing areas which allow the section of fans who want to stand and jump around to do so legally & safely.
   
3. B teams from almost all of the bigger clubs playing regular league football alongside smaller clubs in the lower leagues.
   

 

These concepts are idealism for us here though and it's debatable whether any of these things are actually going to be achievable in Scotland.

 

German football clubs can afford to do these things because German football has VAST sums of cash flowing into it from broadcasting, sponsorship and advertising. I'd be surprised if there's even an equivalent of as much as 5% of their revenue totals flowing in our game.

 

That's where there's a circular effect in play though (a vicious circle of sorts) and we shouldn't just dismiss these things as completely impossible to emulate due to the financial (and demographic) differences.

 

One of the reasons German football has become what we see today is because they decided to empower the actual football fans and work on the match experience. By doing that, they've created one of the most passionate, vibrant and flourishing footballing nations in the world.

 

Maybe something can be done to improve the sport here without the huge amounts of money German football has and it doesn't have to be a chicken vs egg conundrum for Scottish football?

[the gunslinger 3,366]

the money will stop us getting to cl semis but good coaching and scouting will still take us far.

[rbr 1,247]

Why do we always compare ourselves against teams with far better infrastructure and basic financing , yes I totally agree with the youth system model , but not all season tickets are $90 euros a season , they also get 80,000 every home game , have a member ship scheme , and are party to one of the best tv deals outside the EPL , something that is continually overlooked .

[Darthter 542]

season tickets are $90 euros a season , they also get 80,000 every home game ,

 

The 2 most likely go hand-in-hand.....

 

It would be an interesting experiment to see an SPL team (mid-table), slash their ticket prices to maybe just above 1/2 the current level & see the impact. In theory they could get considerably more fans through the gate - possibly even enough to eliminate the lost revenue from tickets alone. With having an increased crowd, that will then increase revenue from refreshments & merchandise....which in turn results in more cash in the clubs coffers.

 

The negative circle is then replaced by a much more positive one, which could ultimately result in the club affording better quality players, which then improves things on the park, which then draws in more fans.....

 

As part of the experiment, the SPL and/or SFA could help financially with any shortfall, to ensure that the club doesn't go bust while partaking.