Coventry and QPR opted not to take a knee

[ChelseaBoy 2,233]

4 hours ago, Thinker said:

Of course it effects the players. What's the point of being a supporter if support (or lack of) from the terraces makes no difference? I doubt it's a total conincidence that the match that triggered the furore ended as a home defeat to the managerless club at the bottom of the table.

 

To quote Millwall FC's response:

And the negative press is bound to effect sponsorship, player recruitment and player retention. How could it not? It's difficult to quantify "influence", but if you can come up with a method, the answer sure as hell wouldn't be "zero".

Take a look at Millwall's history sometime and you will see that disturbance on the field, off the field and on the terraces has had minimal effect over the last 100 years. If you equate booing by around 500 out of 2k supporters at a match led to Millwall losing the game, then i'm sure the manager will have words with those players. Even the thickest of players should realise people are booing what taking the knee stands for and who it is primarily aimed at not the players themselves.  

[ChelseaBoy 2,233]

2 hours ago, Thinker said:

We're there to support the team. Are you suggesting we should all sit quietly, as neutral observers without offering encouragment? Do you think the atmosphere the fans create has no impact?

 

IMO, if the players (or anyone making a gesture or statement) tell you they aren't trying to make a political point I'd need a solid reason not to take them at face value.

 

Yes, it's certainly a matter worth debating, but it's quite obviously too nuanced a question to respond to by booing from a terrace. If a fans group were to make a banner with a pithy slogan summarising their support for the team and anti-racism initiatives, but think taking the knee / BLM has become divisive, that would be fair enough. But does booing players who believe they're making a show of support for sufferers of discrimination send a message with a clear and unambiguous meaning?

Again you miss the point - what other means has working class punters got to show their disapproval? Making pithy banners isn't going to cut it. Really? 

 

Maybe said players should educate themselves on the wider aims of BLM. If they then decide that yes, i do support defunding the police, the end to familial life as we know it, the smashing of capitalism and that all white people are inherently racist - then then can kneel all they want and not worry about booing. 

[ChelseaBoy 2,233]

2 hours ago, Thinker said:

You're veering away from the points I'm trying to make here. Booing before kick-off will have a negative effect on the team and negative consequences for the club. That's because you can't effectively express your counter-argument to taking the knee by booing.

 

To make a parallel: I fully support the wearing of poppies by players around remembrance day. Whilst you could debate the political nuances of this, anybody who would boo a player for wearing a poppy is wilfully misinterpreting what the display is intended to mean and is an embarassment to their club. Do you disagree with any of that?

I would say that it's the only way working class people with no other route to show their disapproval and it has always been so. 

 

I would also argue it's been very effective in raising people from the stupor of mindless participation. 

 

As Ghandi once said, “It’s better to walk alone than with a crowd going in the wrong direction.”  

Edited December 9, 2020 by ChelseaBoy

[ChelseaBoy 2,233]

2 hours ago, Thinker said:

You're veering away from the points I'm trying to make here. Booing before kick-off will have a negative effect on the team and negative consequences for the club. That's because you can't effectively express your counter-argument to taking the knee by booing.

 

To make a parallel: I fully support the wearing of poppies by players around remembrance day. Whilst you could debate the political nuances of this, anybody who would boo a player for wearing a poppy is wilfully misinterpreting what the display is intended to mean and is an embarassment to their club. Do you disagree with any of that?

What political nuances. They are worn to remember the British dead of conflict around the world, primarily the two world wars. 

 

Do not confuse poppy wearing with a overtly political organisation like BLM - just don't go there.

[Thinker 866]

2 hours ago, Gonzo79 said:

Did you say the same about DiCanio and far-right ideology when he saluted the Lazio fans (he stated at the time it's a Roman salute and not a Nazi salute)?

When Goldson stated on social media that he had no intention of making a political point by taking the knee, I see no reason to doubt him. I like him and I'm glad he's a Rangers player. I think he's a good, honest guy.

I'm not sure I could say the same about di canio. (Especially as he has "il duce" tattooed in Latin on his arm).

[Gonzo79 13,624]

It's good that sportsmen are around to educate the masses about what is political and what isn't. 

 

?

[Bill 13,717]

So some fans booed the taking of the knee. Big deal. you'd think by the hysterical reaction that they'd been sacrificing panda cubs in the stands. All this fuss seems to be saying "don't you dare express your opinion, your opinion counts for shit and we'll tell you what to think or do".

 

Whether you agree with those Millwall fans or not, the sneering indignation I've seen this week is way over the top. Upsetting someone's "feelings" seems to be upsides with rape and torture these days. In my world, "feelings" were something we developed resilience to cope with. Now we're going to see some footballers walk off the park to demonstrate how precious they are. And it's all about saying "we'll decide what you say and we'll decide when you say it". I don't care whether they're black or white arseholes but this isn't right by any measure.

[Thinker 866]

1 hour ago, ChelseaBoy said:

Take a look at Millwall's history sometime and you will see that disturbance on the field, off the field and on the terraces has had minimal effect over the last 100 years. If you equate booing by around 500 out of 2k supporters at a match led to Millwall losing the game, then i'm sure the manager will have words with those players. Even the thickest of players should realise people are booing what taking the knee stands for and who it is primarily aimed at not the players themselves.  

You should probably take that argument up with Millwall FC as they released a statement suggesting that the crowd reaction has had an impact (as quoted previously).

 

1 hour ago, ChelseaBoy said:

Again you miss the point - what other means has working class punters got to show their disapproval? Making pithy banners isn't going to cut it. Really? 

 

Maybe said players should educate themselves on the wider aims of BLM. If they then decide that yes, i do support defunding the police, the end to familial life as we know it, the smashing of capitalism and that all white people are inherently racist - then then can kneel all they want and not worry about booing. 

What on Earth does this have to do with people being working class? Plenty of working class people have no gripe with those players, and I daresay not everyone booing at The Den was working class. Banners are a very effective way for fans to direct their ire at a specific aspect of something (e.g. support the club, sack the spivs, or support the players, sack the manager). It's far more likely to strike home than booing and jeering.

 

1 hour ago, ChelseaBoy said:

What political nuances. They are worn to remember the British dead of conflict around the world, primarily the two world wars. 

 

Do not confuse poppy wearing with a overtly political organisation like BLM - just don't go there.

I agree that wearing a poppy isn't political, and long may it conttinue at the football. But some contemptible folk do try to claim otherwise and project political motives onto it. (Just look East). The argument seems to be that wearing an emblem of support for our war dead somehow implies that non-British casualties are unimportant. Which is nonsense. The same is true of taking the knee. The stated objective of the players doesn't include promoting any particular political ideology. No one is saying "only black lives matter". And it's not a question of these players educating themselves about the meaning of their actions - it's a question of accepting that they've just come to a different conclusion about what their actions mean than you have. It's not worth getting upset about. You should go and give the liberal lefties who actually want to smash the state or dismantle capitlaism a hard time - I'm sure professional athletes who drive to training in cars that cost more than my flat have no time for those fools either. Clearly, the players are running the risk of getting lumped in with the nutters, but you can't adequately convey the distinction by howling at them from a football terrace.

[Bill 13,717]

By far the biggest problem for the media, the football authorities and certain players is that for once they can't ignore the dissent from their world view. The thing that's unacceptable about the booing is that they can't control it and you know how they like to be in control. And when they can't control something they're compelled to stamp it out. Cant have the customers' tail wagging the advertisers' dog.

[Gonzo79 13,624]

3 minutes ago, Bill said:

And when they can't control something they're compelled to stamp it out. Cant have the customers' tail wagging the advertisers' dog.

John Barnes was talking about the booing earlier this week and when the journalist said something like there's no way to punish people for booing, he responded something like I wish there was.

 

It's my way or the highway, seemingly.