Walterbear

More succinct than me pete! Thornhill did also accept that NI would be due from oldco but doubt this would be sufficient to result in title grabbing.

Memory a bit fuzzy now BD and I'm not a tax or contract lawyer but I think it was that there was no contractual commitment to make the payment and the trust was managed outside the club by the trustees so if the EBT is taxable then it is up to the trustee to pay that tax. EBTs only became illegal retrospectively in 2012 although HMRC referred to a historical case (another footballer where a similar scheme was deemed as 'redirected earnings' ) which HMRC won. I think it was Peter Shilton. He was personally screwed but I don't know the details of how the trust was set up and what his employers role was other than to put money in it. The issue could well rest in the the side letters and whether they were deemed as a contract and therefore attract PAYE but the side letters didn't exist for everyone with an EBT and they apparently only said RFC would offset any tax liabilities which they may attract rather than admitting there was a tax obligation such as PAYE which RFC would pay at source I.e. It was a contract with clear remuneration for services. If it should have been paid at source and wasn't then the stripped titles clamour will be back. If they accept the trust was a benign act or a legitimate tax avoidance scheme under the law at that time then oldco may well win. I suppose with some detailed knowledge of the law and a decision tree or flow chart this may not be too complicated to work out. Legal opinion and tax accountants however seem quite split and SC may well have the break new ground here. Thornhill effectively pulled a rabbit out the hat in the last minutes of the hearing but whether it is enough to absolve oldco I've no idea. From a practical perspective HMRC will get little from oldco so player liability would actually mean a return to the taxpayer. From a stripping of titles angle this is important because if the judges don't accept Thornhill argument then oldco withheld PAYE therefore used money it didn't have to pay players. How this is no different from a club that goes into administration and only pays a few pence in the pound of its debt is something we will want to highlight if it goes badly. Hearts can hand back their 5-1 cup win over hibs for example. Let's hope the rabbit wins the day coz this whole thing is nothing to do with sporting integrity as we know. Any other club and no one would care.

At the summing up QC for oldco (Thornhill) accepted they were taxable but asked SC to rule that the trustees were accountable not Oldco. It would be hard to envisage SC overruling the appellants acceptance of the fact they were taxable. But who knows?

Agree with other comments. I'm new so for me it is refreshing to have a Fan site focussed on the club. Too many sites from other fan bases as well as our own talk about anything but their own club! The layout is good for mobile, not pestered with adverts and a good spread of topics. Posters seem knowledgeable about tactics and real football stuff. Can't think of any real improvement required. So often the urge to 'improve' is done without considering the users so it's good to have this thread.

Completely agree. If we can't kill the tie at Ibrox it will be a very tense occasion over there. Heat, atmosphere, recent experience in Europe, disadvantage of second leg away, team gelling or not, plus they have a smattering of Brazilians so you would imagine have technical ability. We will want a 50k crowd at Ibrox and our team playing at pace to get on top of them. There were a lot easier ties than this.

If there is no time wasting at all then does the game last less than 90 minutes? That would be daft. I suspect they may be looking at a whole range of options but may proceed with one or two. I would be happy with stopping the clock at major points for example goal celebrations and penalty kicks but would keep it at that. Passing to yourself at a free kick seems OK as well - a bit like a tap penalty in rugby and it could well be fairer where professional fouls often allow defenders to regroup and advantage is lost. It could speed the game up I wouldn't change the 45 to 30 but need more transparency over injury time. It seems to be potentially corrupt on occasion so linking the stadium clock to the referees seems sensible. Clarification of handball would be welcome. I would apply it for any instance of ball to hand where the defender got an advantage.

We may not want to reveal how much money we have if bidding for other players.

I'd prefer to avoid Scandinavian and ROI sides in early rounds. Half way through seasons and improving standards plus we will be a big scalp. Not ideal as we are getting to know each other. By the final qualifying round we should be in good shape to give most teams a decent game if they are still in pre season. Group stage qualification would be an exceptional achievement. It would be massive in terms of reconnecting with younger generations and getting our brand back out there. I suspect we will need 10-15 games before we really start to understand how effective the recruitment and gelling has been and what the possibilities are for the rest of the season. On paper everything is looking positive but would really like us to clinch the Dorrans and Walker deals as we definitely need a few Scots in the team who are also supporters.

The fact he couldn't break into that team as a regular is a sufficient indictment against his ability and attitude. His failure to put Dodo in summed him up for me. Brainless, selfish, unable to understand what he was part of. I suspect he has the 'character' to draw his wages and get pyshed for the next year. PC isn't just changing the players he's changing the culture and mentality. He already understands more than Warburton did.

Agree on the formation points. The full backs were AWOL particularly Tav and the recycling was impotent because of the lack of quality. We were found out by big standard Scottish teams. Nothing wrong with what Warburton tried to do but if you don't have the quality you need to try something else, which he refused to do.

I would want to know how guys like Holt play with better players around him. I'd see a bit more of a transitional approach. I would assume the new spine of Herrera, Pena and Alves would be the immediate core along with Wallace and Jack and Dorrans and many of the others bought in will fight for a place with whoever is left from the current team. I think he will put the new winger in to feed Herrera reasonably early on.

Excellent stuff.

It may be if King ignores it.

Wonder if he's stepping away. AJ coming on board etc.

I've said this for many years. I'd rather have played against lower league English teams from decent sized cities and towns than the dross in Scotland and work out way up. Blackpool, Sheffield, Hull, Nottingham, Bristol, Millwall all hold more appeal to me than Patrick, Motherwell and Dundee.

It would be quite good if King had just decided to spend his money on players rather than go through with this charade of offering to buy shares at less than their true value ?

I agree unfortunately. In all of this I am not clear if Whyte still has a floating charge over any assets with respect to the 18m 'debt' to Wavetower or did that get consumed in some other murky paper transactions? Genuine question - I've lost the thread on that angle.

A few posts ago you were adamant that there was no connection between this case and the EBT case bluedell. I argued there is an indirect connection through Murray and that a judgement in the EBT case before the Whyte case may prejudice the Whyte case,so may be being held back by the Supreme Court. You scoffed (wrongly imo at that). Now your asking a basic question about what the charges were against Whyte. Is there a point to your question that may help understand why it's being asked?

Don't forget Collyer Bristow already settled 24m with BDO.

That would be my concern too.

Oldco have not been liquidated yet. It's relevant. Re changing my tune - if someone points out a relevant fact such as Murray ownership possibility I wouldn't ignore that. You've previously said the Whyte trial is not related to the EBT trial. There is no direct relationship but there is an indirect one.

HMRC would not have seen it that way. They believe they are owed money and BDO are the custodians of the old company. There may have been an argument about ownership reverting to Murray but what I am saying is it is inevitable HMRC would have had a go - they may or may not have been successful. The premise of their argument would be that BDO were the de facto owners. If the assets reverted to SDM that would have been just as worrying as they would go after him potentially. They still may do. Their job is to try and retrieve what they can via BDO, SDM or whoever. I don't think they can do that now. That is the bottom line and I think it's good news .

It could do depending on who rightfully owns Ibrox. If you recall Whyte thought green stung him. Whyte would not have been able to have ever claimed ownership if he was convicted Suspect that story may unfold but that's just my view.

If you fraudulently buy an asset you haven't actually bought it. Ownership remains with the seller or in this case the liquidator. If I buy your car using fraudulent means and I'm discovered my 'ownership' is invalid.

Nope! Doubt it mate! There is a positive in all this. It means the assets including Ibrox and Auchenhowie do not now belong to the old company in liquidation (inevitable consequence of a guilty verdict) which in turn means HMRC can't get them which I think they would have a go at if EBT verdict unfavourable. Perhaps this verdict is better news than most realise. EBT verdict will follow quickly now this is out the way imo.